Conservative co-chairman faces party followers on HS2 (From Bucks Free Press)

Does that mean that this Conservative association is at total odds with their MP Cheryl Gillan over opposing the rail route? Deadlock? What's likely to happen to her if they disagree bitterly with her? Will she be deselected by them?

I see the NIMBYs were out in force to tell the Tory co-Chairman that they didn't want HS2 to pass through "our AONB" and ""HS2 is the wrong investment decision at a time of national austerity".
Of course none of this bunch have an electoral mandate to oppose HS2, unlike the 3 main parties who all included support for High Speed Rail in their 2010 General Election manifestos.

Personally I don't have the slightest problem with a Judicial Review of the HS2; then perhaps objectors will roll over and think of England because there is a lovely big trainset coming your way !

This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less.

If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money.

51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

The Council have a duty to protect the rights of the people affected by this colossal White Elephant which will cost far more than the 50 billion or so budgeted for. As do all the other Councils who are taking similar action.

People losing their homes isn't nimby ism.

Spend the money where it's needed, in providing water to the South East.

Let's have something which is needed and benefits the people.

HS2 is £33bn for the track, £8bn trains, £1.3?bn pa interest on the debt, £xbn associated infrastructure like Heathrow links, new tube lines etc, then £22bn operating cost less revenue from the millions of business men who want to go up and down to Birmingham and the north at great expense and time rather than use the video conferencing.

So, if HS2 goes ahead the real cost will end up as being at least £50bn and probably heading towards £100bn. The vast majority of people will get no benefit or actually worse train services with slower less frequent trains.

The only thing that's guaranteed is that EVERYONE will be paying for it - perhaps as much as £2000 per household by the time it is all finished!

An appalling waist and lost opportunity to improve the whole railway system and the economy

HS2 critics just can't explain why high speed rail won't be a success here when it has been in comparable countries such as France, Germany and Japan.

And all that stuff about the line being the biggest threat to Bucks in living memory! Do these people drive blindfold around the M25 and up the M40?

I will contact Lord Feldman to make sure he knows there is an alternative view among local residents.

As for using Bucks taxpayers' cash on a legal challenge, it's a disgrace. Take a look at some of the latest news stories to see where the money should be spent.

The HS2 is the best option for providing a 21st Century rail solution to the backward looking Nimby people in the area. The shambolic appreciation of the proposed real solution to a growing need in Great Britain is here and needed. All the people in Buckinghamshire and this area think of is their precious over-priced houses that add nothing to the economy apart from producing egocentric "alleged" guardians of the environment. The proposed route is not ideal but it is a good one. It needs extending around the south of Buckinghamshire pass Denham and around to Heathrow and Gatwick to the Channel Rail Link and then it would be a far better solution than it is currently.

A writer her states that the people in the area have missed the issue altogether: this is for the benefit of the Whole Country of Great Britain. The High Speed Rail equivalents in France Germany and Spain and elsewhere are a roaring success, and they do take people out of their cars and off the roads as well as out of air transport. And reminding people of this - tha latter issue - the ridiculous issue proposed by Boris Johnson of a new airport in the Thames Estauary would cost the country more than this High Speed Rail Link and be a complete "white elephant!" That oprion which has been discussed elsewhere is more of anonsense the longer it is viewed. And who is paying for that £8Million investigation? The Tax Payers again. Politicians in the Bucks County Council are wasting the Council Tax Payers' money left right and centre as is evidenced bythe continued push to incinerate the county's waste and to have that proposal relocated to Beaconsfiels again! So if you really want that issue raised concentrat on the folly that Bucks CC Council Tax Payers will be paying over the odds for this project (a proposal by Councillor Tett!) that need not cost anywhere near that £1,500 Million over the 40 years programme it is scheduled. It can be reduced to less than a quarter by more acceptable means of treatment that involves a different and better treatment system.

Carl@Denham wrote:
HS2 critics just can't explain why high speed rail won't be a success here when it has been in comparable countries such as France, Germany and Japan.

And all that stuff about the line being the biggest threat to Bucks in living memory! Do these people drive blindfold around the M25 and up the M40?

I will contact Lord Feldman to make sure he knows there is an alternative view among local residents.

As for using Bucks taxpayers' cash on a legal challenge, it's a disgrace. Take a look at some of the latest news stories to see where the money should be spent.

Yes please Carl, do let Lord Feldman know that there are many of us in Buckinghamshire who do have vision for the future and do want HS2 to be built for the nation. As I keep saying, the small vocal minority of Anti HS2 have been over reported, especaily by BFP.
Cllr Tett (Bucks CC ldr) has not yet bothered to reply to my email (nor have my councillors or my Bucks CC rep!! BUt he did reply to my MP who wrote on my behalf) about misappropriating our council taxes for a political campaign but he told my MP that only 2 of us objected to this and HS2!!

Windsorian wrote:
I see the NIMBYs were out in force to tell the Tory co-Chairman that they didn't want HS2 to pass through "our AONB" and ""HS2 is the wrong investment decision at a time of national austerity".
Of course none of this bunch have an electoral mandate to oppose HS2, unlike the 3 main parties who all included support for High Speed Rail in their 2010 General Election manifestos.

Personally I don't have the slightest problem with a Judicial Review of the HS2; then perhaps objectors will roll over and think of England because there is a lovely big trainset coming your way !

How on earth can you claim an electoral mandate if all 3 main parties were supporting the scheme? There was no other viable choice than to vote for one of those 3! That really is a pretty desperate argument for shouting down those who dare to point out what a giant waste of money this is.

Kadoogan wrote:

Windsorian wrote:
I see the NIMBYs were out in force to tell the Tory co-Chairman that they didn't want HS2 to pass through "our AONB" and ""HS2 is the wrong investment decision at a time of national austerity".
Of course none of this bunch have an electoral mandate to oppose HS2, unlike the 3 main parties who all included support for High Speed Rail in their 2010 General Election manifestos.

Personally I don't have the slightest problem with a Judicial Review of the HS2; then perhaps objectors will roll over and think of England because there is a lovely big trainset coming your way !

How on earth can you claim an electoral mandate if all 3 main parties were supporting the scheme? There was no other viable choice than to vote for one of those 3! That really is a pretty desperate argument for shouting down those who dare to point out what a giant waste of money this is.

Well you can vote for the useless and totally irrelevant UKIP!
Perhaps it hasn't dawned on you yet that with all 3 major political parties supporting HS2 it is an important NATIONAL project!
NIMBYS of Buckinghamshire are in a vocal minority - HS2 will be built and by 2050 most in Bucks will wonder what all the fuss was about like the M40, HS1 and M25 years ago.

Kadoogan wrote:

Windsorian wrote:
I see the NIMBYs were out in force to tell the Tory co-Chairman that they didn't want HS2 to pass through "our AONB" and ""HS2 is the wrong investment decision at a time of national austerity".
Of course none of this bunch have an electoral mandate to oppose HS2, unlike the 3 main parties who all included support for High Speed Rail in their 2010 General Election manifestos.

Personally I don't have the slightest problem with a Judicial Review of the HS2; then perhaps objectors will roll over and think of England because there is a lovely big trainset coming your way !

How on earth can you claim an electoral mandate if all 3 main parties were supporting the scheme? There was no other viable choice than to vote for one of those 3! That really is a pretty desperate argument for shouting down those who dare to point out what a giant waste of money this is.

You could set up your own Anti HS2 political party! I don't think you would get many members or votes!!

A BY-ELECTION in early February dubbed as "a referendum on HS2" has been won by the Liberal Democrats.

UKIP dubbed the ballot, for the Amersham Town Council town ward, as a vote on the £33bn rail scheme, saying it was the only party standing which opposes it.

Yet, it was beaten into 3rd place!

The election was a close run thing with Lib Dem Vera Head regaining the seat which she lost in 2010.

Since this is not in my back yard I can hardly be a NIMBY. I object on the basis of the ridiculous amount of money it is going to cost, and the lack of any sound reasoning for why we need it.

As for minority parties saying they don't support HS2, well of course they aren't going to win based on that one issue. People don't tend to vote based on one single issue. When all 3 major parties agree on an issue you really have no choice. To call it an electoral mandate is pathetic.

Kadoogan wrote:
Since this is not in my back yard I can hardly be a NIMBY. I object on the basis of the ridiculous amount of money it is going to cost, and the lack of any sound reasoning for why we need it.

As for minority parties saying they don't support HS2, well of course they aren't going to win based on that one issue. People don't tend to vote based on one single issue. When all 3 major parties agree on an issue you really have no choice. To call it an electoral mandate is pathetic.

Conclusion - if you do not want to form an Anti HS2 party accept that HS2 will be built for the national interest and is supported by all 3 political parties and stop whinging.

@Kadoogan

An electoral mandate is when a party publishes a written manifesto before an election with its planned policies; in my opinion to describe this as pathetic is just ignorant.

piran - we both know a single issue party would not achieve anything that would stop this scheme. Spending silly amounts of money for little benefit is what I am against. Stop being so silly.

So please explain just why this is going to be so wonderful for the UK and is a great use of billions of pounds of public money?

Windsorian wrote:
@Kadoogan

An electoral mandate is when a party publishes a written manifesto before an election with its planned policies; in my opinion to describe this as pathetic is just ignorant.

mandate: a command or authorization to act in a particular way on a public issue given by the electorate to its representative

Pretty ignorant of you not to know that.

Before I have to leave I must point out that I am willing to be convinced that this is a good idea. However, I have yet to see a solid argument for spending such a huge amount of money. Doing it just because France has one isn't a reason. We are a much smaller country, and I can't see why we cannot update our existing rail network, and perhaps re-open some of the lines closed by Beeching if there is the demand for it. I haven't seen any great demand for getting to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker.

Kadoogan wrote:
piran - we both know a single issue party would not achieve anything that would stop this scheme. Spending silly amounts of money for little benefit is what I am against. Stop being so silly.

So please explain just why this is going to be so wonderful for the UK and is a great use of billions of pounds of public money?

Oh dear have you done no research about HS2? You seem very quick to be a critic of something you obviously know little about. Or is it easier just to complain or do nothing for the future?

From 2026 we as a nation need transport capacity for a successful, complex and modern economy. Infrastructure is the backbone of all countries with airports, power stations, rail systems etc. Previous generations build infrastructure that we use today like the Victorians built canals and railways. The old rail system will lack capacity for 2050 and beyond - the nations population is growing, as is the complexity of the economy. We need economic growth to proper. Only so much can be done to patch up an old Victorian rail system. We need to invest in HS2 for the future of our children and grandchildren and not be selfish, mean, NIMBYs or hide our heads in the sand.

Kadoogan wrote:
Since this is not in my back yard I can hardly be a NIMBY. I object on the basis of the ridiculous amount of money it is going to cost, and the lack of any sound reasoning for why we need it.

As for minority parties saying they don't support HS2, well of course they aren't going to win based on that one issue. People don't tend to vote based on one single issue. When all 3 major parties agree on an issue you really have no choice. To call it an electoral mandate is pathetic.

You do have a choice - emigrate.

piran wrote:

Kadoogan wrote:
Since this is not in my back yard I can hardly be a NIMBY. I object on the basis of the ridiculous amount of money it is going to cost, and the lack of any sound reasoning for why we need it.

As for minority parties saying they don't support HS2, well of course they aren't going to win based on that one issue. People don't tend to vote based on one single issue. When all 3 major parties agree on an issue you really have no choice. To call it an electoral mandate is pathetic.

You do have a choice - emigrate.

Sounds like you don't have a choice Piran, cos you're blinkered!

piran wrote:

Kadoogan wrote:
piran - we both know a single issue party would not achieve anything that would stop this scheme. Spending silly amounts of money for little benefit is what I am against. Stop being so silly.

So please explain just why this is going to be so wonderful for the UK and is a great use of billions of pounds of public money?

Oh dear have you done no research about HS2? You seem very quick to be a critic of something you obviously know little about. Or is it easier just to complain or do nothing for the future?

From 2026 we as a nation need transport capacity for a successful, complex and modern economy. Infrastructure is the backbone of all countries with airports, power stations, rail systems etc. Previous generations build infrastructure that we use today like the Victorians built canals and railways. The old rail system will lack capacity for 2050 and beyond - the nations population is growing, as is the complexity of the economy. We need economic growth to proper. Only so much can be done to patch up an old Victorian rail system. We need to invest in HS2 for the future of our children and grandchildren and not be selfish, mean, NIMBYs or hide our heads in the sand.

I think we're looking beyond 2050 and saying HS2 is not needed. Not at the costs incurred to habitat and capital expenditure for limited gain.

France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

I have regular meetings using file-sharing technology if need be with India and don't have to take a train or get Delhi Belly!

I have regular conference calls with participants from just down the road, Canada, Estonia and the bloke on the other floor at work!
...
No need to use a train, plane or autombile and we're VERY productive, because we don't travel.
...
I can perform the same function from home and not communte to work!
...
Has the pro-HS2 lobby factored in the cost of fuel that will take cars off the road and the increased bandwidth that technology allows to work-places and homes?

I also have conference calls with Manchester, sometimes Northern Ireland and more often other companies in London.
...
If I need to travel I do, but I wouldn't think about travelling into the 1 or 2 HS2 hubs in London to go to Birmingham!
...
HS2 is already a waste of peoples time and money and it will only get worse if blinkered victorian views about working styles stays inthe 1980's & 1990's.
...
Get with Technology people and save our countryside and a huge amount of £Billions that can be better and more wisely spent than a train set!
...

Come on,...someone call me a NIMBY, cos I'm not!

Come on,...someone call me un-educated or ill informed, because I'm quite the opposite,...
...
Then after the slur, let me hear a constructive well thought out, value driven argument about tangible benefits for HS2?
...
You can't do that can you?

Perhaps someone wants to tell me that I'm not worldly-wise?
...
I've worked and lived abroad, for weeks, months and years in various places, so I feel I have a handle better than most and certainly better than the political class who spend more time arguing about what some-one else said, not answering the question and not having anything to say for themselves without fear they may prejudice themselves in future interviews!
...

Back in a bit, I've a conference call to attend,...however as it will be from my desk I may be able to multi-task and respond to any well present points of view.

Oh, one point. I once took a train from Kings-X to Nottingham and the mobile reception was worse than pants. WiFi was none existent!
...
Get the current trains working with modern technology and you may see a demand to travel. Trial it on the current trains and you'll be able to benchmark how much 'work' is done on trains, at what times, by looking at the usage statistics on the WiFi. You don't need to get personal or detailed about what people are doing just broad categories of what they are doing in regard work/leisure.
...
Also just because some-one is or isn't connected, doesn't mean they are or are not working,...the data just provides a benchmark and provide some potential.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I also have conference calls with Manchester, sometimes Northern Ireland and more often other companies in London.
...
If I need to travel I do, but I wouldn't think about travelling into the 1 or 2 HS2 hubs in London to go to Birmingham!
...
HS2 is already a waste of peoples time and money and it will only get worse if blinkered victorian views about working styles stays inthe 1980's & 1990's.
...
Get with Technology people and save our countryside and a huge amount of £Billions that can be better and more wisely spent than a train set!
...

CAPACITY!!

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

End of conversation? I've not even started buddy!
...
I'm not saying that in all circumstances Face-2-Face will be replaced by technology, just in a large and growing number over the next 10-20 years.
...
There will also be supplemental technology driven activity which will add to Face-2-Face meetings in some respects.
...
You never put any arguments forward with any shred or depth of detail for me to take you seriously.
...
What you really mean is "change your mind or don't waste my time",...but as you can't offer any feasible or credible comments YOU are wasting YOUR time and so are the rest of the HS2 pro-lobby as well as a huge amount of Capital.
...
Come on bring it on :-)

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I also have conference calls with Manchester, sometimes Northern Ireland and more often other companies in London.
...
If I need to travel I do, but I wouldn't think about travelling into the 1 or 2 HS2 hubs in London to go to Birmingham!
...
HS2 is already a waste of peoples time and money and it will only get worse if blinkered victorian views about working styles stays inthe 1980's & 1990's.
...
Get with Technology people and save our countryside and a huge amount of £Billions that can be better and more wisely spent than a train set!
...

CAPACITY!!

Bit cryptic a one world answer?
...
Plenty of capacity in the virtual world! You only need to look at the sales of iPads / Tablets / iPhones,...linked with the ever increasing fibre technology for broadband etc. In the latter we are not world leaders and lag so there is plenty more capacity to be had.

Did you known that iPad sales alone outstripped ALL Microsoft sales in the last year?
...
Microsoft has been growing there business for years and Apple went from a standing start (more or less) a couple of years ago with iPad.
...
Get with the times Piran, not behind it!

Come on Piran, give me some positives on the Pro-HS2 amongst all your negatives ahainst so called Nimbys,...

Come on Piran, give me some positives on the Pro-HS2 amongst all your negatives against so called Nimbys,...

You'll probably say I should have written "their" instead of "there" and attack my typing/spelling instead of my arguments.
...
Please post something interesting and intelligent and build a case for HS2 so you can change my mind through constructive discussion?

You'll probably say I should have written "their" instead of "there" and attack my typing/spelling instead of my arguments.
...
Please post something interesting and intelligent and build a case for HS2 so you can change my mind through constructive discussion?

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

End of conversation? I've not even started buddy!
...
I'm not saying that in all circumstances Face-2-Face will be replaced by technology, just in a large and growing number over the next 10-20 years.
...
There will also be supplemental technology driven activity which will add to Face-2-Face meetings in some respects.
...
You never put any arguments forward with any shred or depth of detail for me to take you seriously.
...
What you really mean is "change your mind or don't waste my time",...but as you can't offer any feasible or credible comments YOU are wasting YOUR time and so are the rest of the HS2 pro-lobby as well as a huge amount of Capital.
...
Come on bring it on :-)

I suggest you do some real research about HS2 before you make more stuff up. I am amazed at your wild claims that technology and new ways of working will make rail travel unnecessary. All 3 political parties agree on the need for HS2 - huge amounts of research/consultancy were done before the investment was announced. Governments do not just invest in projects, such as HS2, on guesswork. I have worked in Whitehall and know how through the cases have to be before spending any money, let alone billions!
Try having a look at the HS2 sites/Dept of Transport for some facts before you convince yourself that the anti HS2 myths are facts.

Can't you tell how eager I am Piran to read what you might write or are you sulking because you know there is no plausible business case to HS2?

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I also have conference calls with Manchester, sometimes Northern Ireland and more often other companies in London.
...
If I need to travel I do, but I wouldn't think about travelling into the 1 or 2 HS2 hubs in London to go to Birmingham!
...
HS2 is already a waste of peoples time and money and it will only get worse if blinkered victorian views about working styles stays inthe 1980's & 1990's.
...
Get with Technology people and save our countryside and a huge amount of £Billions that can be better and more wisely spent than a train set!
...

CAPACITY!!

Bit cryptic a one world answer?
...
Plenty of capacity in the virtual world! You only need to look at the sales of iPads / Tablets / iPhones,...linked with the ever increasing fibre technology for broadband etc. In the latter we are not world leaders and lag so there is plenty more capacity to be had.

You need to come back to planet earth!

If video links were the be all and end all Cameron would never have to get on a plane. In any case the leisure market is actually the fastest growing sector in rail. Or all we all going to go on "virtual holidays" in future? I think not.

And just a note on those population densities. France, Germany and Japan all have greater land area and lower population density than England, that is a fact. However, they actually have very large urban conurbations (e.g.The Ruhr) and if you look at the areas served by much of the high speed rail networks the population densities are mostly similar to ours or indeed much greater e.g. the Tokyo region.

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

End of conversation? I've not even started buddy!
...
I'm not saying that in all circumstances Face-2-Face will be replaced by technology, just in a large and growing number over the next 10-20 years.
...
There will also be supplemental technology driven activity which will add to Face-2-Face meetings in some respects.
...
You never put any arguments forward with any shred or depth of detail for me to take you seriously.
...
What you really mean is "change your mind or don't waste my time",...but as you can't offer any feasible or credible comments YOU are wasting YOUR time and so are the rest of the HS2 pro-lobby as well as a huge amount of Capital.
...
Come on bring it on :-)

I suggest you do some real research about HS2 before you make more stuff up. I am amazed at your wild claims that technology and new ways of working will make rail travel unnecessary. All 3 political parties agree on the need for HS2 - huge amounts of research/consultancy were done before the investment was announced. Governments do not just invest in projects, such as HS2, on guesswork. I have worked in Whitehall and know how through the cases have to be before spending any money, let alone billions!
Try having a look at the HS2 sites/Dept of Transport for some facts before you convince yourself that the anti HS2 myths are facts.

I have seen and know Whitehall have wasted millions on government projects and now they are going for billions to supplement their previous records.
Nirod, Euro-fighter, NHS Database, Identity cards and not even having joined up thinking on an aircraft carrier in our fleet to protect the Falklands.
...
The French helped us in Libya because it was in their interest! No so the Falklands, unless we share some oil revenue with them no doubt!
...
The technology claims are not made up, check the FT and you will see.
...
Technology has only just been let into parliament and the MOD/Whitehall have closed technology systems so they are less vulnerable to external attack. It's no wonder they are clueless about remote and distributed working patterns, most of them work in a closed world and can not see the benefits,...
....
What I am trying to do is educate and still you slur "wild claims" because you do not understand.
...
My guess (and I feel sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you may just be a silver surfer who's be clue by your children on how to work a keyboard?
...
Toodlepip, I have to go and catch a train!

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I also have conference calls with Manchester, sometimes Northern Ireland and more often other companies in London.
...
If I need to travel I do, but I wouldn't think about travelling into the 1 or 2 HS2 hubs in London to go to Birmingham!
...
HS2 is already a waste of peoples time and money and it will only get worse if blinkered victorian views about working styles stays inthe 1980's & 1990's.
...
Get with Technology people and save our countryside and a huge amount of £Billions that can be better and more wisely spent than a train set!
...

CAPACITY!!

Bit cryptic a one world answer?
...
Plenty of capacity in the virtual world! You only need to look at the sales of iPads / Tablets / iPhones,...linked with the ever increasing fibre technology for broadband etc. In the latter we are not world leaders and lag so there is plenty more capacity to be had.

You need to come back to planet earth!

Yeah like I was in space and logged on from the shuttle!

Carl@Denham wrote:
If video links were the be all and end all Cameron would never have to get on a plane. In any case the leisure market is actually the fastest growing sector in rail. Or all we all going to go on "virtual holidays" in future? I think not.

And just a note on those population densities. France, Germany and Japan all have greater land area and lower population density than England, that is a fact. However, they actually have very large urban conurbations (e.g.The Ruhr) and if you look at the areas served by much of the high speed rail networks the population densities are mostly similar to ours or indeed much greater e.g. the Tokyo region.

So you're mixing up one man (Cameron) and Leisure?
...
Yes France & Germany have larger land areas, I thought I said that and their primary and secondary urban locatiosn are not circa 14+ million and 2+ million like London & Birmingahm.
...
Japan has even higher densities as they have less available land and hence more reliance on rail, especially as in there equivalent of AONB (and I'm not talking about radio-active sites) trains aren't viable due to the large numbers of mountains they'd have to drill through and hence there is little or no conflict with environmentalist,...
just look at the Dolphin slaughter and shark fin soup!
...
The Ruhr is served by high speed to other non-Ruhr locations which are greater distances away than Birmingham is to London. Locally in the Ruhr the trains can't get to high speeds because of the short distances involved.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations. ... France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable. ... Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous? ... The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference. ... I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles! ... My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now! ... 21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars ...

"My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!"

So is this now part of the school curriculum "conferencing on facebook" @13.59pm on a Thursday afternoon.????????

WHY ISN@T YOUR 15 YEAR OLD AT SCHOOL??????????

If people don't want to support one of the 3 parties they could always vote for an independent candidate standing on an anti-rail route ticket. There are many very fed up Tories here now.

Windsorian wrote:
@Kadoogan

An electoral mandate is when a party publishes a written manifesto before an election with its planned policies; in my opinion to describe this as pathetic is just ignorant.

It is pretty naïve to believe that voters only vote for a party based on one pledge in a manifesto or that most voters agree 100% with all the pledges that are in the parties’ manifesto that they end up voting for. Also what is not stated is that all 3 parties are in favour of high speed rail, not the HS2 project. There is plenty of opposition to HS2 and not just from people on the proposed line.

miccles wrote:
This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less.

If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money.

51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

End of conversation? I've not even started buddy!
...
I'm not saying that in all circumstances Face-2-Face will be replaced by technology, just in a large and growing number over the next 10-20 years.
...
There will also be supplemental technology driven activity which will add to Face-2-Face meetings in some respects.
...
You never put any arguments forward with any shred or depth of detail for me to take you seriously.
...
What you really mean is "change your mind or don't waste my time",...but as you can't offer any feasible or credible comments YOU are wasting YOUR time and so are the rest of the HS2 pro-lobby as well as a huge amount of Capital.
...
Come on bring it on :-)

I suggest you do some real research about HS2 before you make more stuff up. I am amazed at your wild claims that technology and new ways of working will make rail travel unnecessary. All 3 political parties agree on the need for HS2 - huge amounts of research/consultancy were done before the investment was announced. Governments do not just invest in projects, such as HS2, on guesswork. I have worked in Whitehall and know how through the cases have to be before spending any money, let alone billions!
Try having a look at the HS2 sites/Dept of Transport for some facts before you convince yourself that the anti HS2 myths are facts.

I have seen and know Whitehall have wasted millions on government projects and now they are going for billions to supplement their previous records.
Nirod, Euro-fighter, NHS Database, Identity cards and not even having joined up thinking on an aircraft carrier in our fleet to protect the Falklands.
...
The French helped us in Libya because it was in their interest! No so the Falklands, unless we share some oil revenue with them no doubt!
...
The technology claims are not made up, check the FT and you will see.
...
Technology has only just been let into parliament and the MOD/Whitehall have closed technology systems so they are less vulnerable to external attack. It's no wonder they are clueless about remote and distributed working patterns, most of them work in a closed world and can not see the benefits,...
....
What I am trying to do is educate and still you slur "wild claims" because you do not understand.
...
My guess (and I feel sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you may just be a silver surfer who's be clue by your children on how to work a keyboard?
...
Toodlepip, I have to go and catch a train!

I am not wasting my time replying to you. You have made up your mind to be anti HS2.
Don't pretend to be interesting in the HS2 case because you have proved in all your posts above that your mind is closed and made up to be anti.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
Can't you tell how eager I am Piran to read what you might write or are you sulking because you know there is no plausible business case to HS2?

HS2 will deliver benefits all over the country

A Y-shaped national network with links onto the East Coast and West Coast main lines will enable high speed services to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds directly. Many of the trains running on HS2 will also be compatible with the existing railway and therefore able to run off the HS2 lines to serve a range of other towns and cities including Liverpool, Preston, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. They will run at high speed on HS2 and at conventional speeds on the existing network.
Nine out of the UK’s ten largest conurbations will be connected in this way, providing significant enhancements to inter-city rail capacity and connectivity between the vast majority of the country’s major urban economies.


HS2 will cut journey times between our major cities

To ensure that travellers will be able to benefit from the most up-to-date train technology over the long-term, the line will be built to accommodate speeds of up to 250mph, similar to lines being designed elsewhere in Europe, although the expected maximum line speed at opening will be 225mph.
This will see journey times from London to Birmingham reduced to just 45 minutes – less time than it takes to make a journey across London from Hackney to Wimbledon. Journey times to Leeds and Manchester will also fall significantly to around 88 and 68 minutes, respectively.


HS2 makes rail travel more attractive for passengers

By enhancing inter-city rail capacity and connectivity HS2 could prompt significant modal shift from air and road to our railways. HS2 would encourage modal shift by making rail increasingly attractive for some journeys that would otherwise be made by plane or car.
For aviation this is particularly true for the London to Scotland. HS2 is forecast to carry up to 4.5 million passengers every year who might otherwise have travelled by air, as well as seeing up to 9 million passengers transfer from the national road network.


Few responses argued for prioritising increased road or air capacity (over rail) between major urban centres.

Doing nothing damages smaller towns and cities. Growing demand for rail travel presents opportunities and challenges. As demand grows over the coming years and capacity becomes more stretched, train operators are increasingly likely to focus on serving the main rail markets of Britain’s major urban centres. The expense of new infrastructure, as well as the operating costs, to enable smaller towns and cities to retain current service standards will in many instances be unjustifiable. As a result, smaller towns and cities are likely to see their rail services become less frequent and slower. This trade-off is already playing out on the busiest main lines, and, in particular, the recent timetable introduced following the West Coast Route Modernisation programme has seen a diminished service for a number of stations along the route.
By contrast, with the majority of long distance north-south journeys expected to transfer to HS2, there is potential to use the capacity released on the existing network for new and better services, catering for a wider variety of markets which would improve the connectivity to places that could otherwise see a diminishing rail service.


Major transport projects have been delivered on budget recently.

Anti HS2 responses suggested that HS2 would be beset by cost overruns.
In line with HM Treasury requirements, the costings prepared for HS2 include allowances of up to 64 per cent for cost overruns. HS1, the only current high speed line in Britain, was delivered on time and on budget. More recently, the £371 million Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 was opened in July 2011 on time and on budget, and the major construction programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games is similarly on target.
The Government will continue to work with HS2 Ltd and Infrastructure UK and its range of private sector advisers to ensure that the costs of HS2 continue to be properly developed, managed and reviewed

HS2 supports regeneration and growth

The Government recognises the complexity of these issues and notes the strongly contrasting attitudes adopted in consultation responses. In the light of these consultation responses, the Department for Transport has reviewed the evidence in respect of the impacts of transport infrastructure projects on economic growth. This has confirmed that major transport investments can have a significant stimulus on economic growth at the local, regional and national levels, and, where they form part of an effective overall strategy can support local regeneration.

HS2 will help to close the north south divide

There is strong and widespread support from the Midlands and the North for HS2. Business and political leaders have identified the clear benefits of the project for their regions. They are particularly keen to have more rapid access to the major markets of London and the South East but also to see improved connectivity within and between their regions. Whilst the Government recognises that a proportion of the benefits of HS2 would be felt in the South, this does not alter the importance of HS2 for the rest of the country. Research previously undertaken by the Northern Way suggests that, given the relative size of their respective economies, there is potential for the benefits to the Midlands and the North to have a much larger proportionate impact. Evidence presented to the Government as part of the consultation also demonstrates the sizeable benefits from HS2 anticipated in the Midlands and the North.



HS2 has been adapted via the consultation to address concerns

Changes to the line of the HS2 route following consultation mean that out of a total length of just under 140 miles, around 22.5 miles (not including the HS1 link) will be in tunnel or green tunnel. This is an increase of more than 50 per cent from the route consulted on. In addition, around 56.5 miles will be partially or totally hidden in cutting. Around 40 miles will be on viaduct or embankment – this is around 10 miles less than the consultation route. This means that around 79 miles (more than half of the route) will be mitigated by tunnel or cutting.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

Carl@Denham wrote: If video links were the be all and end all Cameron would never have to get on a plane. In any case the leisure market is actually the fastest growing sector in rail. Or all we all going to go on "virtual holidays" in future? I think not. And just a note on those population densities. France, Germany and Japan all have greater land area and lower population density than England, that is a fact. However, they actually have very large urban conurbations (e.g.The Ruhr) and if you look at the areas served by much of the high speed rail networks the population densities are mostly similar to ours or indeed much greater e.g. the Tokyo region.

So you're mixing up one man (Cameron) and Leisure? ... Yes France & Germany have larger land areas, I thought I said that and their primary and secondary urban locatiosn are not circa 14+ million and 2+ million like London & Birmingahm. ... Japan has even higher densities as they have less available land and hence more reliance on rail, especially as in there equivalent of AONB (and I'm not talking about radio-active sites) trains aren't viable due to the large numbers of mountains they'd have to drill through and hence there is little or no conflict with environmentalist,... just look at the Dolphin slaughter and shark fin soup! ... The Ruhr is served by high speed to other non-Ruhr locations which are greater distances away than Birmingham is to London. Locally in the Ruhr the trains can't get to high speeds because of the short distances involved.

For Cameron read hundreds of thousands of people with jobs that actually involve interacting with people across the UK, Europe, the World, whatever. And if we are never going to meet each other face to face what a dismal future that would be! Sure, IT is useful for keeping in touch, but in any case as I said and others have pointed out, all this focus on business travel ignores the growing importance of the leisure market and this will probably be the biggest sector when HS2 comes on stream.

But the geography stuff is baffling me. You seem to be saying that high speed rail is OK for other countries because they have more spare land and smaller urban centres. Well, as you pointed out in the case of Japan, a lot of that spare land is in fact wilderness areas where few trains go. What I am saying is that if you look at the areas where most people live, and where most high speed lines are concentrated e.g. Japanese coastal regions, northern France, Belgium, north-west Germany etc etc then the population density is the same or greater than the parts of the UK HS2 will serve, so this spare land argument is a bit of a non-starter.

And whereas Paris and Berlin do not compare to greater London in overall population size, Tokyo is much larger. And Germany has four cities with a million plus and another ten with half a million to a million, so considerably more large urban centres than the UK. As for distances, the Paris-Brussels-Colog
ne corridor is not dissimilar to London-Birmingham-Ma
nchester. So I am just not sure what you are saying as to why high speed rail works there but won't work here because the distribution of population and land use is more intensive in some cases, less so in others, but very similar to the UK in many regions. All in all conditions both economic and topographic are just not that dissimilar to ours as to make high speed rail OK for them but somehow uniquely unsuitable for the country that invented railways in the first place!

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed"

Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on.

In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say.

For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it.

It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing.
In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent.
Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment.
Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us.
Shameful.

Scarletto wrote:
Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing. In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent. Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment. Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us. Shameful.

"In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent."

So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money on this, when this money can be put to better and more important issues.?????????

And it has been stated Cheryl Gillan has not done anything wrong, politically wise, but you keep harping on about her in about 95% of your posts, there are far worse MP's around.

Can someone explain to me why some people say Cheryl Gillan is actually innocent of doing anything wrong in her conduct in handling the rail route saga? Many people think she acted shamefully. I am open to being persuaded that she has not acted badly as our MP. Thanks.
Lastly, I agree it's very sad our councils are spending so much money fighting the plan. It will be a lovely beanfeast for lawyers representing the cases for and against the route.

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

Scarletto wrote:
Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing.
In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent.
Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment.
Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us.
Shameful.

Oh I understand - when the pro-HS2 supporters reply properly to questions about HS2 they are
"long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing".
What an unnecessary insult.
All we are doing is to counter Anti HS2 myths/lies and to put a detailed and reasoned view about HS2 rather than the hysterical NIMBY view of life.

I am now convinced that Anti HS2 lobby has already decided to be against everything to do with HS2. Luckily there are many of us who want to
invest in the future! How very selfish of you and the Anti HS2 lobby.
About routing - HS2 only goes through 13 miles of AONB and only 2 miles above ground - hardly an environmental disaster as portrayed by the Anti-lobby.
Yes financially things are tough now but HS2 investment is NOT HAPPENING NOW. It comes in after Crossrail and most applies to 2016 and beyond.
So stop being a scare monger and get the facts before pushing out those Anti HS2 myths as truth!

And if you do not like Cheryl Gillan - do not vote for her at the next election.

Scarletto wrote:
Can someone explain to me why some people say Cheryl Gillan is actually innocent of doing anything wrong in her conduct in handling the rail route saga? Many people think she acted shamefully. I am open to being persuaded that she has not acted badly as our MP. Thanks. Lastly, I agree it's very sad our councils are spending so much money fighting the plan. It will be a lovely beanfeast for lawyers representing the cases for and against the route.

"Can someone explain to me why some people say Cheryl Gillan is actually innocent of doing anything wrong in her conduct in handling the rail route saga? Many people think she acted shamefully."

There is no such thing as an "Innocent MP", unfortunately, as we have discovered in recent years, MP's fiddled their expenses, and these are the people who should show respect and honesty for the position they hold, but this wasn't to be, personally i think people are having a go at Cheryl Gillan, because she just happens to be in this constituency of this hoo haa about HS2, and people are watching every move she makes so they can "put a gun to her head", about every thing she does.

Regarding her house sale, at the end of the day, she is or was a resident in this area, just like any other resident, except she was being watched and fired at for every move she made. She was perfectly entitled to sell her house, just like any other person, but the "anti's" see it another way because alot of them have a "one sided view".

People will see this differently i know, i wasn't having a go at you btw.

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

miccles wrote:

Scarletto wrote: Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing. In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent. Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment. Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us. Shameful.

"In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent." So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money on this, when this money can be put to better and more important issues.????????? And it has been stated Cheryl Gillan has not done anything wrong, politically wise, but you keep harping on about her in about 95% of your posts, there are far worse MP's around.

'So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money when this money can be put to better and more important issues?' As you say you don't care for HS2 so why don't you ask why our Goverment is due to spend billions not thousands on a flawed project? After all it our tax money that they are using for it. And like you say that money could be used for so many other more important things at the moment.

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Scarletto wrote: Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing. In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent. Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment. Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us. Shameful.

"In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent." So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money on this, when this money can be put to better and more important issues.????????? And it has been stated Cheryl Gillan has not done anything wrong, politically wise, but you keep harping on about her in about 95% of your posts, there are far worse MP's around.

'So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money when this money can be put to better and more important issues?' As you say you don't care for HS2 so why don't you ask why our Goverment is due to spend billions not thousands on a flawed project? After all it our tax money that they are using for it. And like you say that money could be used for so many other more important things at the moment.

It is called INVESTING in transport infrastructure for the FUTURE!!

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

Oh I thought you weren't talking to me anymore?

Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me I will take this opportunity to ask you again to point in the direction to where I can find some real evidence that our railways will be full to capacity by 2026. And please don't repsond with your always predictable, your a Nimby and have no vision for UK's future.

Also reading one of your other recent posts I just wanted to remind you that the government is spending vasts amounts of money NOW for future consultations and man power in their quest to push through HS2. So the argument that we could save money now and use it for other better more important issues if we scrapped HS2, does hold water and not a anti HS2 myth or lie that you stated earlier.

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Scarletto wrote: Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing. In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent. Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment. Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us. Shameful.

"In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent." So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money on this, when this money can be put to better and more important issues.????????? And it has been stated Cheryl Gillan has not done anything wrong, politically wise, but you keep harping on about her in about 95% of your posts, there are far worse MP's around.

'So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money when this money can be put to better and more important issues?' As you say you don't care for HS2 so why don't you ask why our Goverment is due to spend billions not thousands on a flawed project? After all it our tax money that they are using for it. And like you say that money could be used for so many other more important things at the moment.

It is called INVESTING in transport infrastructure for the FUTURE!!

I wasn't actually asking you.

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Scarletto wrote: Some of these long-winded rail route supporters have their heads in the clouds with wordy attempts to justify the routeing. In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent. Lots of things are desirable as next steps for improvement in the UK but we just can't have them at the moment. Lastly, I hope senior local Conservatives will urge Cheryl Gillan to step down because of her recent broken pledges and a degree of misleading many of us. Shameful.

"In our real world, where people have real problems, vital services are beinf cut back and priorities have to be established fopr precious money to be spent." So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money on this, when this money can be put to better and more important issues.????????? And it has been stated Cheryl Gillan has not done anything wrong, politically wise, but you keep harping on about her in about 95% of your posts, there are far worse MP's around.

'So why is this council splashing out thousands and thousands of tax payers money when this money can be put to better and more important issues?' As you say you don't care for HS2 so why don't you ask why our Goverment is due to spend billions not thousands on a flawed project? After all it our tax money that they are using for it. And like you say that money could be used for so many other more important things at the moment.

It is called INVESTING in transport infrastructure for the FUTURE!!

I wasn't actually asking you.

OK then don't put comments on a public website if you do not want people to reply!

Since when has any project of this scale been built on budget ?

Not a NIMBY, but someone who wants vfm - which this ain't !!!

Flackwell wrote:
Since when has any project of this scale been built on budget ?

Not a NIMBY, but someone who wants vfm - which this ain't !!!

In line with HM Treasury requirements, the costings prepared for HS2 include allowances of up to 64 per cent for cost overruns. HS1, the only current high speed line in Britain, was delivered on time and on budget. More recently, the £371 million Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 was opened in July 2011 on time and on budget, and the major construction programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games is similarly on target.
The Government will continue to work with HS2 Ltd and Infrastructure UK and its range of private sector advisers to ensure that the costs of HS2 continue to be properly developed, managed and reviewed

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

Oh I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me I will take this opportunity to ask you again to point in the direction to where I can find some real evidence that our railways will be full to capacity by 2026. And please don't repsond with your always predictable, your a Nimby and have no vision for UK's future. Also reading one of your other recent posts I just wanted to remind you that the government is spending vasts amounts of money NOW for future consultations and man power in their quest to push through HS2. So the argument that we could save money now and use it for other better more important issues if we scrapped HS2, does hold water and not a anti HS2 myth or lie that you stated earlier.

"Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me"

and your position in society is??????

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

Oh I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me I will take this opportunity to ask you again to point in the direction to where I can find some real evidence that our railways will be full to capacity by 2026. And please don't repsond with your always predictable, your a Nimby and have no vision for UK's future. Also reading one of your other recent posts I just wanted to remind you that the government is spending vasts amounts of money NOW for future consultations and man power in their quest to push through HS2. So the argument that we could save money now and use it for other better more important issues if we scrapped HS2, does hold water and not a anti HS2 myth or lie that you stated earlier.

"Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me"

and your position in society is??????

A voter, and council tax payer living in Buckinghamshire. Is that Ok with you?

piran wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

Oh I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me I will take this opportunity to ask you again to point in the direction to where I can find some real evidence that our railways will be full to capacity by 2026. And please don't repsond with your always predictable, your a Nimby and have no vision for UK's future. Also reading one of your other recent posts I just wanted to remind you that the government is spending vasts amounts of money NOW for future consultations and man power in their quest to push through HS2. So the argument that we could save money now and use it for other better more important issues if we scrapped HS2, does hold water and not a anti HS2 myth or lie that you stated earlier.

"Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me" and your position in society is??????

A voter, and council tax payer living in Buckinghamshire. Is that Ok with you?

I don't have any choice, so i suppose it will have to be ok with me.

You say in your post @ 12.32pm Friday, you mention this is a "flawed project"??????

"What hardcopy evidence in front of you, do you have that this project is "flawed".
Do you have access to all the govt's papers, accounts, briefings, minutes of meetings, where you can honestly say that you heard people say that we are going to fiddle this"?

miccles wrote:

piran wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

miccles wrote: This story is just about NIMBYISM, nothing more, nothing less. If they want to have a judicial review, let them by all means, but NOT with council taxpayers money. 51m should be classed as a private company, therefore they should raise funds for the review, get them to have a few jumble sales, coffee mornings.

While you have resulted in the predictable name calling to counter any legitmiate arguements against HS2, like most HS2 supporters, I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed route, so my house is in no danger of being destroyed or blighted but I am against HS2 100%.

"I wonder what you would call me. I live nowhere near the propsed" Gullible, selfish, tagging along with others, the list can go on. In every debate/arguement, no matter what the situation, there is always 2 sides to every story, Anti HS2 supporters, only see their side of the story, they are not interested in anything else that other people might have to say. For your info, i'm neither for or against this, if it happens, so be it, if it doesn't, so be it. It just annoys me that when it comes to this taxpayers money seems to flow like niagra falls.

You make no sense at all. Because I have a difference of opinion towards HS2 supporters I am gullible and selfish? Two sides of every story you say, well thats true so I could say the same thing as you about HS2 supporters, they only see their side of the story. It just amazes me that supporters of HS2 result in name calling to counter arguments against HS2 and its pathetic.

The difference is HS2 supporters have a vision for the future and want a good and successful economic future for our children and grandchildren. It is very easy to whine and complain and be against HS2 and do nothing for the future.

Oh I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me I will take this opportunity to ask you again to point in the direction to where I can find some real evidence that our railways will be full to capacity by 2026. And please don't repsond with your always predictable, your a Nimby and have no vision for UK's future. Also reading one of your other recent posts I just wanted to remind you that the government is spending vasts amounts of money NOW for future consultations and man power in their quest to push through HS2. So the argument that we could save money now and use it for other better more important issues if we scrapped HS2, does hold water and not a anti HS2 myth or lie that you stated earlier.

"Seeing as you have deicided to reply to me" and your position in society is??????

A voter, and council tax payer living in Buckinghamshire. Is that Ok with you?

I don't have any choice, so i suppose it will have to be ok with me.

You say in your post @ 12.32pm Friday, you mention this is a "flawed project"??????

"What hardcopy evidence in front of you, do you have that this project is "flawed".
Do you have access to all the govt's papers, accounts, briefings, minutes of meetings, where you can honestly say that you heard people say that we are going to fiddle this"?

????

miccles wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations. ... France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable. ... Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous? ... The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference. ... I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles! ... My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now! ... 21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars ...

"My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!"

So is this now part of the school curriculum "conferencing on facebook" @13.59pm on a Thursday afternoon.????????

WHY ISN@T YOUR 15 YEAR OLD AT SCHOOL??????????

Firstly Miccles you don't run my life and IF my 15 year old happened to be off school there are plenty of valid reasons for so doing, though to be fair the default position is to be at school. However it is NONE of YOUR business.
...
For "now" read "this current era", which was the context, rather than "at this second", which I did not mean to infer.
...
Perhaps my haste to catch the train I shortened the sentence to far and not allow my real meaning to be understood :-)
...

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
France & Germany have much more land available, much smaller population densities that the UK and I admit smaller Urban connerbations.
...
France especially has invested in higher speed rail due to the great distances and many rail lines sharing the common understructure, trains and carriages; which makes longer term support and costs more manageable.
...
Surprised no one has mentioned Japan and the bullet train, but did you know that Japan was 87% mountainous?
...
The key is whether linking London & Birmingham (and plans for going further north) will actually contribute positively to the economy? The view is that London is London centric and it is questionable whether with video-conferencing etc. whether the worth of reducing a communte by 20 mins will make a difference.
...
I think not! Either it is worth having a face-to-face meeting and that takes a day out of some-ones schedule (20 mins is neither here nor there) or you pick up one of those new fangled things called a phone and talk or by 2050 everybody will use Skype or FaceTime from an iPad and conference! Saving huge carbon miles!
...
My 15 year old is already conferencing on FaceBook with 5+ friends even now!
...
21st Century will be BT Infinity of similar and webcams,...not trudging on trains or cars
...

Less thn 30% of HS2 passengers are expected to be from business! I like visiting my family in the Midlands and beyond. Skype, emails etc can NEVER replace face-to-face!
Admit it, you just do not like HS2 so any arguments we put you will dismiss. Look to the future and open your mindor dont waste my time. End of conversation

End of conversation? I've not even started buddy!
...
I'm not saying that in all circumstances Face-2-Face will be replaced by technology, just in a large and growing number over the next 10-20 years.
...
There will also be supplemental technology driven activity which will add to Face-2-Face meetings in some respects.
...
You never put any arguments forward with any shred or depth of detail for me to take you seriously.
...
What you really mean is "change your mind or don't waste my time",...but as you can't offer any feasible or credible comments YOU are wasting YOUR time and so are the rest of the HS2 pro-lobby as well as a huge amount of Capital.
...
Come on bring it on :-)

I suggest you do some real research about HS2 before you make more stuff up. I am amazed at your wild claims that technology and new ways of working will make rail travel unnecessary. All 3 political parties agree on the need for HS2 - huge amounts of research/consultancy were done before the investment was announced. Governments do not just invest in projects, such as HS2, on guesswork. I have worked in Whitehall and know how through the cases have to be before spending any money, let alone billions!
Try having a look at the HS2 sites/Dept of Transport for some facts before you convince yourself that the anti HS2 myths are facts.

I have seen and know Whitehall have wasted millions on government projects and now they are going for billions to supplement their previous records.
Nirod, Euro-fighter, NHS Database, Identity cards and not even having joined up thinking on an aircraft carrier in our fleet to protect the Falklands.
...
The French helped us in Libya because it was in their interest! No so the Falklands, unless we share some oil revenue with them no doubt!
...
The technology claims are not made up, check the FT and you will see.
...
Technology has only just been let into parliament and the MOD/Whitehall have closed technology systems so they are less vulnerable to external attack. It's no wonder they are clueless about remote and distributed working patterns, most of them work in a closed world and can not see the benefits,...
....
What I am trying to do is educate and still you slur "wild claims" because you do not understand.
...
My guess (and I feel sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you may just be a silver surfer who's be clue by your children on how to work a keyboard?
...
Toodlepip, I have to go and catch a train!

I am not wasting my time replying to you. You have made up your mind to be anti HS2.
Don't pretend to be interesting in the HS2 case because you have proved in all your posts above that your mind is closed and made up to be anti.

Piran, you're a bit of a Joke. First you say you won't reply; then you reply. Make your mind up!
...
My mind is not made up, but on balance I am in the anti camp until I hear clear evidence to convince me otherwise. Isn't that the purpose for debate giving you an opportunity to get your point of view across so some-one else can consider and possibly decide to counter? or do you expect to just talk at people and expect them to cave in accepting all you have to say as Gospel, Koran or Torah?

Substituting Bible of Gospel in the above; ever noticed that Bible, Koran & Torah are all five letter words?

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
Can't you tell how eager I am Piran to read what you might write or are you sulking because you know there is no plausible business case to HS2?

HS2 will deliver benefits all over the country

A Y-shaped national network with links onto the East Coast and West Coast main lines will enable high speed services to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds directly. Many of the trains running on HS2 will also be compatible with the existing railway and therefore able to run off the HS2 lines to serve a range of other towns and cities including Liverpool, Preston, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. They will run at high speed on HS2 and at conventional speeds on the existing network.
Nine out of the UK’s ten largest conurbations will be connected in this way, providing significant enhancements to inter-city rail capacity and connectivity between the vast majority of the country’s major urban economies.


HS2 will cut journey times between our major cities

To ensure that travellers will be able to benefit from the most up-to-date train technology over the long-term, the line will be built to accommodate speeds of up to 250mph, similar to lines being designed elsewhere in Europe, although the expected maximum line speed at opening will be 225mph.
This will see journey times from London to Birmingham reduced to just 45 minutes – less time than it takes to make a journey across London from Hackney to Wimbledon. Journey times to Leeds and Manchester will also fall significantly to around 88 and 68 minutes, respectively.


HS2 makes rail travel more attractive for passengers

By enhancing inter-city rail capacity and connectivity HS2 could prompt significant modal shift from air and road to our railways. HS2 would encourage modal shift by making rail increasingly attractive for some journeys that would otherwise be made by plane or car.
For aviation this is particularly true for the London to Scotland. HS2 is forecast to carry up to 4.5 million passengers every year who might otherwise have travelled by air, as well as seeing up to 9 million passengers transfer from the national road network.


Few responses argued for prioritising increased road or air capacity (over rail) between major urban centres.

Doing nothing damages smaller towns and cities. Growing demand for rail travel presents opportunities and challenges. As demand grows over the coming years and capacity becomes more stretched, train operators are increasingly likely to focus on serving the main rail markets of Britain’s major urban centres. The expense of new infrastructure, as well as the operating costs, to enable smaller towns and cities to retain current service standards will in many instances be unjustifiable. As a result, smaller towns and cities are likely to see their rail services become less frequent and slower. This trade-off is already playing out on the busiest main lines, and, in particular, the recent timetable introduced following the West Coast Route Modernisation programme has seen a diminished service for a number of stations along the route.
By contrast, with the majority of long distance north-south journeys expected to transfer to HS2, there is potential to use the capacity released on the existing network for new and better services, catering for a wider variety of markets which would improve the connectivity to places that could otherwise see a diminishing rail service.


Major transport projects have been delivered on budget recently.

Anti HS2 responses suggested that HS2 would be beset by cost overruns.
In line with HM Treasury requirements, the costings prepared for HS2 include allowances of up to 64 per cent for cost overruns. HS1, the only current high speed line in Britain, was delivered on time and on budget. More recently, the £371 million Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 was opened in July 2011 on time and on budget, and the major construction programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games is similarly on target.
The Government will continue to work with HS2 Ltd and Infrastructure UK and its range of private sector advisers to ensure that the costs of HS2 continue to be properly developed, managed and reviewed

HS2 supports regeneration and growth

The Government recognises the complexity of these issues and notes the strongly contrasting attitudes adopted in consultation responses. In the light of these consultation responses, the Department for Transport has reviewed the evidence in respect of the impacts of transport infrastructure projects on economic growth. This has confirmed that major transport investments can have a significant stimulus on economic growth at the local, regional and national levels, and, where they form part of an effective overall strategy can support local regeneration.

HS2 will help to close the north south divide

There is strong and widespread support from the Midlands and the North for HS2. Business and political leaders have identified the clear benefits of the project for their regions. They are particularly keen to have more rapid access to the major markets of London and the South East but also to see improved connectivity within and between their regions. Whilst the Government recognises that a proportion of the benefits of HS2 would be felt in the South, this does not alter the importance of HS2 for the rest of the country. Research previously undertaken by the Northern Way suggests that, given the relative size of their respective economies, there is potential for the benefits to the Midlands and the North to have a much larger proportionate impact. Evidence presented to the Government as part of the consultation also demonstrates the sizeable benefits from HS2 anticipated in the Midlands and the North.



HS2 has been adapted via the consultation to address concerns

Changes to the line of the HS2 route following consultation mean that out of a total length of just under 140 miles, around 22.5 miles (not including the HS1 link) will be in tunnel or green tunnel. This is an increase of more than 50 per cent from the route consulted on. In addition, around 56.5 miles will be partially or totally hidden in cutting. Around 40 miles will be on viaduct or embankment – this is around 10 miles less than the consultation route. This means that around 79 miles (more than half of the route) will be mitigated by tunnel or cutting.

I'd use that Cut and Paste more often Piran, if I were you. It would work better than insults. Not sure I agree with all of it and I'll look to come back on some points, but I do agree it is an endeavour to support certain cities in the Midland and the North of England, eventually Scotland more than the traditionally London centric view.

Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

If you read through some of the contributions in this long interchange of messages you can easily start to suspect that some people are writing as occupational therapy on a quiet afternoon in a secure unit for the seriously bewildered! Mouth frothing stuff plus poor spelling, punctuation, lack of capital letters etc. Everyone should calm down and go back to the basket weaving and clearing up the common room before the orderlies come round with the linctus which makes residents sleepy.
Finally, can someone explain why they think Cheryl Gillan, MP, has done nothing wrong? There's been a deafening silence on that subject since I asked it earlier today...

piran wrote: A Y-shaped national network with links onto the East Coast and West Coast main lines will enable high speed services to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds directly. Many of the trains running on HS2 will also be compatible with the existing railway and therefore able to run off the HS2 lines to serve a range of other towns and cities including Liverpool, Preston, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. They will run at high speed on HS2 and at conventional speeds on the existing network.
Nine out of the UK’s ten largest conurbations will be connected in this way, providing significant enhancements to inter-city rail capacity and connectivity between the vast majority of the country’s major urban economies.

...
I'm not debating what it will create (a big train set), I'm asking do we need it and at what cost to both Capital and the Environment.
...
I was tempted to mention Y-Shaped and pants in the same sentence, but that attempt at humour may be construed as derision, which wouldn't nbe meant.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote: A Y-shaped national network with links onto the East Coast and West Coast main lines will enable high speed services to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds directly. Many of the trains running on HS2 will also be compatible with the existing railway and therefore able to run off the HS2 lines to serve a range of other towns and cities including Liverpool, Preston, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. They will run at high speed on HS2 and at conventional speeds on the existing network.
Nine out of the UK’s ten largest conurbations will be connected in this way, providing significant enhancements to inter-city rail capacity and connectivity between the vast majority of the country’s major urban economies.

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I'm not debating what it will create (a big train set), I'm asking do we need it and at what cost to both Capital and the Environment.
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I was tempted to mention Y-Shaped and pants in the same sentence, but that attempt at humour may be construed as derision, which wouldn't nbe meant.

Now we have the M25 car-park and no congestion charges in central London (though improvements in traffic flow I feel) I'm happy that the rest of England (and Scotland) is being thought about.

piran wrote: HS2 will cut journey times between our major cities
To ensure that travellers will be able to benefit from the most up-to-date train technology over the long-term, the line will be built to accommodate speeds of up to 250mph, similar to lines being designed elsewhere in Europe, although the expected maximum line speed at opening will be 225mph.
This will see journey times from London to Birmingham reduced to just 45 minutes – less time than it takes to make a journey across London from Hackney to Wimbledon. Journey times to Leeds and Manchester will also fall significantly to around 88 and 68 minutes, respectively.

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Yes I agree that faster trains will mean shorter travel times between limited hubs. Even my Maths can calculate that,...honest.

piran wrote: HS2 makes rail travel more attractive for passengers
By enhancing inter-city rail capacity and connectivity HS2 could prompt significant modal shift from air and road to our railways. HS2 would encourage modal shift by making rail increasingly attractive for some journeys that would otherwise be made by plane or car.
For aviation this is particularly true for the London to Scotland. HS2 is forecast to carry up to 4.5 million passengers every year who might otherwise have travelled by air, as well as seeing up to 9 million passengers transfer from the national road network.

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Agreed with a new fast train (or two) that Rail travel will become more enticing and I know some mad idiots would already commute from Leeds and Doncaster. Shaving time off their journey's will be a boon. More people may commute from Birmingham for example to work in London and you may see a shift from weekly to daily commuting which will just increase capacity artificially?
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Does Leeds Benefit? Doncaster doesn't.
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Projections of Millions of journeys on a phase between London & Scotland which is so far into the distance that no one saying yeah or nay to HS2 can have either any real certainty of being realistic or have any vested interest as the people making the decisions will all be retired by then.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
Can't you tell how eager I am Piran to read what you might write or are you sulking because you know there is no plausible business case to HS2?

HS2 will deliver benefits all over the country

A Y-shaped national network with links onto the East Coast and West Coast main lines will enable high speed services to link London, Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, South Yorkshire and Leeds directly. Many of the trains running on HS2 will also be compatible with the existing railway and therefore able to run off the HS2 lines to serve a range of other towns and cities including Liverpool, Preston, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. They will run at high speed on HS2 and at conventional speeds on the existing network.
Nine out of the UK’s ten largest conurbations will be connected in this way, providing significant enhancements to inter-city rail capacity and connectivity between the vast majority of the country’s major urban economies.


HS2 will cut journey times between our major cities

To ensure that travellers will be able to benefit from the most up-to-date train technology over the long-term, the line will be built to accommodate speeds of up to 250mph, similar to lines being designed elsewhere in Europe, although the expected maximum line speed at opening will be 225mph.
This will see journey times from London to Birmingham reduced to just 45 minutes – less time than it takes to make a journey across London from Hackney to Wimbledon. Journey times to Leeds and Manchester will also fall significantly to around 88 and 68 minutes, respectively.


HS2 makes rail travel more attractive for passengers

By enhancing inter-city rail capacity and connectivity HS2 could prompt significant modal shift from air and road to our railways. HS2 would encourage modal shift by making rail increasingly attractive for some journeys that would otherwise be made by plane or car.
For aviation this is particularly true for the London to Scotland. HS2 is forecast to carry up to 4.5 million passengers every year who might otherwise have travelled by air, as well as seeing up to 9 million passengers transfer from the national road network.


Few responses argued for prioritising increased road or air capacity (over rail) between major urban centres.

Doing nothing damages smaller towns and cities. Growing demand for rail travel presents opportunities and challenges. As demand grows over the coming years and capacity becomes more stretched, train operators are increasingly likely to focus on serving the main rail markets of Britain’s major urban centres. The expense of new infrastructure, as well as the operating costs, to enable smaller towns and cities to retain current service standards will in many instances be unjustifiable. As a result, smaller towns and cities are likely to see their rail services become less frequent and slower. This trade-off is already playing out on the busiest main lines, and, in particular, the recent timetable introduced following the West Coast Route Modernisation programme has seen a diminished service for a number of stations along the route.
By contrast, with the majority of long distance north-south journeys expected to transfer to HS2, there is potential to use the capacity released on the existing network for new and better services, catering for a wider variety of markets which would improve the connectivity to places that could otherwise see a diminishing rail service.


Major transport projects have been delivered on budget recently.

Anti HS2 responses suggested that HS2 would be beset by cost overruns.
In line with HM Treasury requirements, the costings prepared for HS2 include allowances of up to 64 per cent for cost overruns. HS1, the only current high speed line in Britain, was delivered on time and on budget. More recently, the £371 million Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 was opened in July 2011 on time and on budget, and the major construction programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games is similarly on target.
The Government will continue to work with HS2 Ltd and Infrastructure UK and its range of private sector advisers to ensure that the costs of HS2 continue to be properly developed, managed and reviewed

HS2 supports regeneration and growth

The Government recognises the complexity of these issues and notes the strongly contrasting attitudes adopted in consultation responses. In the light of these consultation responses, the Department for Transport has reviewed the evidence in respect of the impacts of transport infrastructure projects on economic growth. This has confirmed that major transport investments can have a significant stimulus on economic growth at the local, regional and national levels, and, where they form part of an effective overall strategy can support local regeneration.

HS2 will help to close the north south divide

There is strong and widespread support from the Midlands and the North for HS2. Business and political leaders have identified the clear benefits of the project for their regions. They are particularly keen to have more rapid access to the major markets of London and the South East but also to see improved connectivity within and between their regions. Whilst the Government recognises that a proportion of the benefits of HS2 would be felt in the South, this does not alter the importance of HS2 for the rest of the country. Research previously undertaken by the Northern Way suggests that, given the relative size of their respective economies, there is potential for the benefits to the Midlands and the North to have a much larger proportionate impact. Evidence presented to the Government as part of the consultation also demonstrates the sizeable benefits from HS2 anticipated in the Midlands and the North.



HS2 has been adapted via the consultation to address concerns

Changes to the line of the HS2 route following consultation mean that out of a total length of just under 140 miles, around 22.5 miles (not including the HS1 link) will be in tunnel or green tunnel. This is an increase of more than 50 per cent from the route consulted on. In addition, around 56.5 miles will be partially or totally hidden in cutting. Around 40 miles will be on viaduct or embankment – this is around 10 miles less than the consultation route. This means that around 79 miles (more than half of the route) will be mitigated by tunnel or cutting.

I'd use that Cut and Paste more often Piran, if I were you. It would work better than insults. Not sure I agree with all of it and I'll look to come back on some points, but I do agree it is an endeavour to support certain cities in the Midland and the North of England, eventually Scotland more than the traditionally London centric view.

Normally you ignore anthing rational about HS2 anyway.

I do believe that HS2 will NOTbe a failure if/when it is built, in light of projects like HS1 and the Chunnel. What I'm asking is will it be value for money and especially considering the countryside we have is fast being eaten up!

freaky wrote:
Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

freaky - good post but do not expect any of the Bucks Anti-HS2 to understand what you have written. Most have made their minds up to be against HS2, based on Anti-HS2 myths and mostly selfish reasons of self interest and a lack of vision for the future.

piran wrote: Major transport projects have been delivered on budget recently.
Anti HS2 responses suggested that HS2 would be beset by cost overruns.
In line with HM Treasury requirements, the costings prepared for HS2 include allowances of up to 64 per cent for cost overruns. HS1, the only current high speed line in Britain, was delivered on time and on budget. More recently, the £371 million Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 was opened in July 2011 on time and on budget, and the major construction programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games is similarly on target.
The Government will continue to work with HS2 Ltd and Infrastructure UK and its range of private sector advisers to ensure that the costs of HS2 continue to be properly developed, managed and reviewed

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At a 64% overrun they are expecting nearly twice the average over the latest 200+ large government projects.
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Please see:
http://www.taxpayers
alliance.com/BGPOB.p
df
...
Page 5 onwards provides the details.
...
This is why both Pro & Anti HS2 Taxpayers should be worried.
...
On the positive:

TaxPayersAlliance wrote:32 per cent of the projects sampled overran, while 24 per cent came in under
budget.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I do believe that HS2 will NOTbe a failure if/when it is built, in light of projects like HS1 and the Chunnel. What I'm asking is will it be value for money and especially considering the countryside we have is fast being eaten up!

Glad we agree on something!

piran wrote:

freaky wrote:
Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

freaky - good post but do not expect any of the Bucks Anti-HS2 to understand what you have written. Most have made their minds up to be against HS2, based on Anti-HS2 myths and mostly selfish reasons of self interest and a lack of vision for the future.

@Piran if you and anybody you agree with are so clever and the rest of the human race isn't, have you figured out text?
...
@Freaky do you realise that those figures show the increase since 2006 because it was so appalling during the essential work to existing infrastructure and isn't it good to look after properly what we have already.

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:
I do believe that HS2 will NOTbe a failure if/when it is built, in light of projects like HS1 and the Chunnel. What I'm asking is will it be value for money and especially considering the countryside we have is fast being eaten up!

Glad we agree on something!

The use of the exclamation mark belies the truth.

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

freaky wrote:
Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

freaky - good post but do not expect any of the Bucks Anti-HS2 to understand what you have written. Most have made their minds up to be against HS2, based on Anti-HS2 myths and mostly selfish reasons of self interest and a lack of vision for the future.

@Piran if you and anybody you agree with are so clever and the rest of the human race isn't, have you figured out text?
...
@Freaky do you realise that those figures show the increase since 2006 because it was so appalling during the essential work to existing infrastructure and isn't it good to look after properly what we have already.

?

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

freaky wrote:
Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

freaky - good post but do not expect any of the Bucks Anti-HS2 to understand what you have written. Most have made their minds up to be against HS2, based on Anti-HS2 myths and mostly selfish reasons of self interest and a lack of vision for the future.

@Piran if you and anybody you agree with are so clever and the rest of the human race isn't, have you figured out bold text?
...
@Freaky do you realise that those figures show the increase since 2006 because it was so appalling during the essential work to existing infrastructure and isn't it good to look after properly what we have already.

?

Texting?
...
Additionally Bold Texting
...

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

TheHorsesMouth wrote:

piran wrote:

freaky wrote:
Personally I am totally supportive of HS2. The main line from London to the Midlands, North West and Scotland, the West Coast Main Line (WCML), is fast approaching capacity. This is after a major upgrade which was completed in 2006 and cost over £9bn and caused massive delays to services for several years.

The idea behind HS2 is to take the longer distance traffic off of the WCML freeing up paths for intermediate and local services, the towns along the WCML are growing all the time and the need for increased services is ever growing. The WCML is also a major freight route and this is increasing all the time, surely we all want to see more freight moved by rail rather than on our overcrowded roads? With the cutting of journey times people will also be tempted off of aircraft and onto trains.

There are no alternative lines with spare capacity for the long distance and freight traffic so the sooner the line is built the better, the predictions for rail traffic are that passenger numbers will increase by 30% and the current infrastructure will not be able to cope.

I have yet to see a viable alternative to this scheme from any of it's opponents, all the different Railplans are greatly flawed, costs and delays they would cause.

freaky - good post but do not expect any of the Bucks Anti-HS2 to understand what you have written. Most have made their minds up to be against HS2, based on Anti-HS2 myths and mostly selfish reasons of self interest and a lack of vision for the future.

@Piran if you and anybody you agree with are so clever and the rest of the human race isn't, have you figured out bold text?
...
@Freaky do you realise that those figures show the increase since 2006 because it was so appalling during the essential work to existing infrastructure and isn't it good to look after properly what we have already.

?

Texting?
...
Additionally Bold Texting
...

?? Texting is done using a phone

Scarletto wrote:
Can someone explain to me why some people say Cheryl Gillan is actually innocent of doing anything wrong in her conduct in handling the rail route saga? Many people think she acted shamefully. I am open to being persuaded that she has not acted badly as our MP. Thanks.
Lastly, I agree it's very sad our councils are spending so much money fighting the plan. It will be a lovely beanfeast for lawyers representing the cases for and against the route.

That's easy. Because she is one of hardly any MPs along the whole route that has pushed through a change to the proposals that provide a big benefit to her constituents (an extended tunnel and an extended green tunnel). Whilst everyone e;se has been moaning and spinning local rubbish about HS2 for their own benefit she has worked behind the scenes to actually get a result. If only the county council would have had such brains (never mind - missed the boat - opportunity gone!).

fleecedtaxpayer wrote:
HS2 is £33bn for the track, £8bn trains, £1.3?bn pa interest on the debt, £xbn associated infrastructure like Heathrow links, new tube lines etc, then £22bn operating cost less revenue from the millions of business men who want to go up and down to Birmingham and the north at great expense and time rather than use the video conferencing.

So, if HS2 goes ahead the real cost will end up as being at least £50bn and probably heading towards £100bn. The vast majority of people will get no benefit or actually worse train services with slower less frequent trains.

The only thing that's guaranteed is that EVERYONE will be paying for it - perhaps as much as £2000 per household by the time it is all finished!

An appalling waist and lost opportunity to improve the whole railway system and the economy

Shall we have a nice wager that the scheme will actually come in well under budget?