Council must decide: raise tax or cut benefits (From Bucks Free Press)

I vote for cutting benefits!!
We both work in our house, and are already on the bread line!!! ... Where a lot (not all) if people on benefits are living much more confortably than we are ... It's not right!!

similar story - why should I work 40 odd hours a week to get a similar life style to a benfit claimant.

Yes I may get a holiday and a few more nights out, but to get those extras I'm funding a very similar lifestyle to those that can't be bothered.

The system is broken

Cut benefits - simple.

Yes to all the above. Lower wage bracket or too lazy to get off your backside and get a job? Tough luck. Thats life. This is not a communist state, if you have less than someone else, so be it.

Flackwell wrote:
similar story - why should I work 40 odd hours a week to get a similar life style to a benfit claimant.

Yes I may get a holiday and a few more nights out, but to get those extras I'm funding a very similar lifestyle to those that can't be bothered.

The system is broken

I doubt you have as many holidays as them, and nights out?!! Some layabouts are down the pub every day!

Maybe it’s time the council looked inwards, and started to make large financial and staff cuts internally. I find it strange that at a time of bloated government, there are suggestions to increase our local government expenditure on a new Town Council for High Wycombe.

The local council are constantly wasting taxpayers money. A prime example is the totally pointless ‘2012 celebration’ banners hanging from most lamp posts in the town, which actually says nothing of relevance to anyone, nor do they inform anyone of which (if any) celebrations or events they relate to. Thousands of pounds were spent (wasted) on designing, approving, printing and installing these pointless banners. This is only one small example of our councillors frivolous use of our money. There are many many more.

Time for local government to look inward and make cuts: – stop recruiting and let natural attrition reduce the staff levels. – Stop using consultancy firms, and start making decisions for which they have already sufficient decision makers within the local government.

cut benefits!

Good to see the local government being honest about the situation.
As usual nothing is simple in this world.
Cut benefits and what happens? More need for social services and healthcare? More antisocial beahviour so more policing needed?? Who knows but we need to thing about the cosnequences.
What other services could be cut further?
Tough choices!

The article mentions protecting pensioners but there is no reference in the article about protecting the payments paid to the disabled which is of concern. As for the rest, yes, slash and burn the benefits. Benefits were envisioned to be a leg up for people in need, not a career choice. As things stand there is too much of a disincentive to find work.

I will agree with “A VOTER” though, efficiency savings should be made within the council as well.

Perhaps the poll should have offered a third choice: Cut benefits AND reduce council tax for all.

QualityCare4all wrote:
Good to see the local government being honest about the situation.
As usual nothing is simple in this world.
Cut benefits and what happens? More need for social services and healthcare? More antisocial beahviour so more policing needed?? Who knows but we need to thing about the cosnequences.
What other services could be cut further?
Tough choices!

In that case, cut benefits even more, squeeze it down to a small percentage of what it is now and use the huge amount of money that will be saved to go into the health care and police to deal with the benefit claimants that you pointed out would cause more antisocial unrest. We would still be billions better off. Benefits is a good thing but only if used for the right purposes and not for a lifestyle. Too many wasters claiming too much money.

What a bunch of uncaring selfish lot you are. The raise would be around £1.00 a month (25p per week). You want the poor to suffer more or for more people unemployed. Brilliant. Can those of you out there provide evidence of people on benefits that are better off than some you, probably not as you are going by hearsay. This is right up Tigeran,s street, I'm surprised he/she hasn't called for compulsory sterilization for those who are on minimum wage or unemployed.

Compulsory sterilization for unemployed people on benefits is not a bad idea. Especially if they are habitually unemployed and have made no efforts to find work. It is not selfish to think this way, it is selfish to assume you can be part of society yet contribute nothing to it.

sparky49 wrote:
What a bunch of uncaring selfish lot you are. The raise would be around £1.00 a month (25p per week). You want the poor to suffer more or for more people unemployed. Brilliant. Can those of you out there provide evidence of people on benefits that are better off than some you, probably not as you are going by hearsay. This is right up Tigeran,s street, I'm surprised he/she hasn't called for compulsory sterilization for those who are on minimum wage or unemployed.

I personally know of two families, that are housed by the council, none of the adults work, have new TV’s, the kids have Xboxes, drink, fags and food are plentiful, and run a car. They can expect pensions when they reach retirement age, and will have the full services of the NHS for free, throughout their lives.

It makes me wonder sometimes why I work so hard.

Yes - I know of many families that live comfortably on benefits... big TVs, smoke, multiple consoles, nice big houses with gardens... where there is always a sofa outside...

I don't believe the stories about welfare scroungers living luxuriously on benefits.

What we need is a reform of local taxation - at the moment a widow living on her own pays almost the same as a family of young and middle-aged wage earners. If we had that it might increase the funds available to local government.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:
I don't believe the stories about welfare scroungers living luxuriously on benefits.

What we need is a reform of local taxation - at the moment a widow living on her own pays almost the same as a family of young and middle-aged wage earners. If we had that it might increase the funds available to local government.

(Oh and full employment of course.)

sparky49 wrote:
What a bunch of uncaring selfish lot you are. The raise would be around £1.00 a month (25p per week). You want the poor to suffer more or for more people unemployed. Brilliant. Can those of you out there provide evidence of people on benefits that are better off than some you, probably not as you are going by hearsay. This is right up Tigeran,s street, I'm surprised he/she hasn't called for compulsory sterilization for those who are on minimum wage or unemployed.

Sparky49. We are well aware of your love of the easy life and letting other people earn the money for you but the good times for the likes of you HAVE to come to an end sometime. Hard working people CANNOT go on bailing out the work shy, the 'they have more than me so I want more' types and so on and so forth. I am afraid the bleeding heart, social loving attitude has brought this country to its knees and now is the time to put a stop to it.
Answer me this, what gives someone the right who has never worked or does the absolute bare minimum work that is then topped up by benefits to a similar level of pay to someone else who works hard also but gets no help, to then go out and have 3, 4, 5 or more children just because they know they will get help to pay for them when some people who refuses to go on benefits to decide to actually NOT have children because they cant afford it? How is that right? Let me say this, I know exactly whos children I would rather have brought into this world and its not someone with the mind set of some of the people who make a living on benefits.

If I thought for one minute that the right benefits would be cut then I would agree because i am sorry but it sticks in my craw that there are feckless people out there who are sticking two fingers up at the rest of us poor saps and getting everything they can out of the state.
But the trouble is.. they will always know how to work the system and they will continue to do so.
It is the ones who have genuine need - the ones with cancer who cannot work, the ones who have horrible long term conditions, people with severely disabled children who depend on carers to help them, the elderly who need their meals on wheels, and community centres. And this is happening already nationally - there have been some horrific stories -someone with terminal cancer being told they are fit for work! A severely mentally disabled girl who needs 2 carers and who is doubly incontinent being told she can sign on and look for work!
They are the ones who will be affected.
And in the mean time the others will just carry on taking what they can and not giving back.
So although I think there are some pretty harsh things written here, I can see why people are getting frustrated. But lets not tar everyone with the same brush :(
I also agree with A Voter - lets look at council expenses as well :)

demoness the second wrote:
If I thought for one minute that the right benefits would be cut then I would agree because i am sorry but it sticks in my craw that there are feckless people out there who are sticking two fingers up at the rest of us poor saps and getting everything they can out of the state.
But the trouble is.. they will always know how to work the system and they will continue to do so.
It is the ones who have genuine need - the ones with cancer who cannot work, the ones who have horrible long term conditions, people with severely disabled children who depend on carers to help them, the elderly who need their meals on wheels, and community centres. And this is happening already nationally - there have been some horrific stories -someone with terminal cancer being told they are fit for work! A severely mentally disabled girl who needs 2 carers and who is doubly incontinent being told she can sign on and look for work!
They are the ones who will be affected.
And in the mean time the others will just carry on taking what they can and not giving back.
So although I think there are some pretty harsh things written here, I can see why people are getting frustrated. But lets not tar everyone with the same brush :(
I also agree with A Voter - lets look at council expenses as well :)

Totally agree Demoness. 100%.

demoness the second wrote:
If I thought for one minute that the right benefits would be cut then I would agree because i am sorry but it sticks in my craw that there are feckless people out there who are sticking two fingers up at the rest of us poor saps and getting everything they can out of the state. But the trouble is.. they will always know how to work the system and they will continue to do so. It is the ones who have genuine need - the ones with cancer who cannot work, the ones who have horrible long term conditions, people with severely disabled children who depend on carers to help them, the elderly who need their meals on wheels, and community centres. And this is happening already nationally - there have been some horrific stories -someone with terminal cancer being told they are fit for work! A severely mentally disabled girl who needs 2 carers and who is doubly incontinent being told she can sign on and look for work! They are the ones who will be affected. And in the mean time the others will just carry on taking what they can and not giving back. So although I think there are some pretty harsh things written here, I can see why people are getting frustrated. But lets not tar everyone with the same brush :( I also agree with A Voter - lets look at council expenses as well :)

Finally - a well reasoned perspective that doesn't make use of stereotype to argue a point.

I guess I fall into the category of antisocial and freeloading because my household claim benefits.

But here's a perspective for you - my (full time) wage cannot support a family of 5 alone since my partner fell mentally ill 7 years ago and is not able to work so I'll take the help offered to make ends meet rather than see my children suffer, thank you very much.

Even with this help, my furniture is second hand and basic, I drink a couple of pints a week , I haven't had a holiday in 6 years, I have to beg in order to pay for my kids to go on school trips and have the basic text books etc that the schools now make the parents pay for.

I could go on but I think my point is made.

I have no doubt that there are people out there who abuse and hammer the system for what they can get and Dominic wotsis face will make another telly programme about them but that isn't me nor thousand of others.

Cut my benefits or increase the tax bill, either way it means I'll have to cut back on day to day expenses even further and I'll find a way to deal with it because I have to.

Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett. I agree with you 100% When does the revolution start?

Seconded :)

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

well I'm ready when ever you lot are ?

It is all very easy to say cut benefits of the workshy etc but not everybody on benefits is a workshy hooligan.

Any one of you above can find yourself unemployed or out of work due to health reasons at any time. Rather than thinking about the minority who do not deserve it, think of your future and whether you may need that help or even a member of your family.

One day it may be you and then you will get really annoyed when workers complain of the "workshy"

Stand up for England wrote:

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

well I'm ready when ever you lot are ?

Woof!

Slacker wrote:
It is all very easy to say cut benefits of the workshy etc but not everybody on benefits is a workshy hooligan.

Any one of you above can find yourself unemployed or out of work due to health reasons at any time. Rather than thinking about the minority who do not deserve it, think of your future and whether you may need that help or even a member of your family.

One day it may be you and then you will get really annoyed when workers complain of the "workshy"

I think everyone on here knows exactly who is meant by when workshy is banded about. Demoness, ArnyP and yourself have all mentioned EXACTLY who should be getting benefits but unfortunatley if you have worked all your life and are not 'in the system' and you fall on hard times you will get f**k all, loose your house that you worked for, paid tax on etc, etc, where as if you are born into the 'system' and take from the word go, you are set up for life assuming you wish to lead a feckless life. It is all too easy for the wrong people.

I think i know which option WDC will go for anyway, it won't be a comprmise, and it won't be cut the benefits either.

miccles wrote:
I think i know which option WDC will go for anyway, it won't be a comprmise, and it won't be cut the benefits either.

For what it's worth, don't forget they froze it last year.

This is exactly what the national government wanted. It is because of them that this decision is being made.

They have effectively cut the funds they give to the local authority and told them to make their own provision for benefit payments. This is without any tax cut to us.

So, we are now all being indirectly taxed more. Please remember this during the next national election.

ArnyP_HW wrote:

demoness the second wrote:
If I thought for one minute that the right benefits would be cut then I would agree because i am sorry but it sticks in my craw that there are feckless people out there who are sticking two fingers up at the rest of us poor saps and getting everything they can out of the state. But the trouble is.. they will always know how to work the system and they will continue to do so. It is the ones who have genuine need - the ones with cancer who cannot work, the ones who have horrible long term conditions, people with severely disabled children who depend on carers to help them, the elderly who need their meals on wheels, and community centres. And this is happening already nationally - there have been some horrific stories -someone with terminal cancer being told they are fit for work! A severely mentally disabled girl who needs 2 carers and who is doubly incontinent being told she can sign on and look for work! They are the ones who will be affected. And in the mean time the others will just carry on taking what they can and not giving back. So although I think there are some pretty harsh things written here, I can see why people are getting frustrated. But lets not tar everyone with the same brush :( I also agree with A Voter - lets look at council expenses as well :)

Finally - a well reasoned perspective that doesn't make use of stereotype to argue a point.

I guess I fall into the category of antisocial and freeloading because my household claim benefits.

But here's a perspective for you - my (full time) wage cannot support a family of 5 alone since my partner fell mentally ill 7 years ago and is not able to work so I'll take the help offered to make ends meet rather than see my children suffer, thank you very much.

Even with this help, my furniture is second hand and basic, I drink a couple of pints a week , I haven't had a holiday in 6 years, I have to beg in order to pay for my kids to go on school trips and have the basic text books etc that the schools now make the parents pay for.

I could go on but I think my point is made.

I have no doubt that there are people out there who abuse and hammer the system for what they can get and Dominic wotsis face will make another telly programme about them but that isn't me nor thousand of others.

Cut my benefits or increase the tax bill, either way it means I'll have to cut back on day to day expenses even further and I'll find a way to deal with it because I have to.

yes but we are not talking about people like you... you are doing what you can and you have to get a little help. That is fine.
But let's face it, there are plenty of people who would not dream of doing that and because of them the people like yourself get tarred with the same brush.
I am a hard working public sector worker but because of the PS workers who do know how to "work the system" I get accused of all sorts.
It is how it is :)

I hope things get better for you soon.

Time to get back to basics.

WDC should cut all discressionary spend, reduce the number of staff employed and concentrate on delivery of the services required by staute. I am sure that the Council's Chief Executive, paid over £120,000 a year, could easily come up with the necessary cahnges.

BCC should take the same line. The first cut should be to the BCC Chief Executives grossley inflated salary.

Some of the svings could then be spent on the Police who we need.

Milo The Dog of JBB wrote:

Stand up for England wrote:

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

well I'm ready when ever you lot are ?

Woof!

Please ensure you are not barking up (or at) the wrong tree (ie hierarchy).
.
As your great-great-great grandpa used to 'say' - "Everything that has a bark is not necessarily a dog or a tree". For instance 'Lord' Prescott comes to mind.
.

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

This is just the politics of envy.

Did the bankers hold a gun to people’s heads and demand they take irresponsible loans they could never hope to pay back?

The bankers took advantage of lax regulation and loose monetary policy championed (in this country) by the socialists. Readily available credit with little accountability led to a boom fuelled by ever increasing spending and financed by debt. Everyone who voted for Labours Ponzi scheme shares some responsibility for this mess.

When a weak and ineffectual Tories did try to make a case for lower public spending they were shouted down by the usual suspects in the trade unions and media and hammered in the opinion polls.

Sorry I should have said -
.
"The rather comfortably well-off , pompous blustering part-time 'Socialist' and punch-up artist ' Lordy' (that's 'Lardy' really) 'I have loads of experience and so I know about things better than any of you inexperienced ordinary working proletarians who are just there to be made fools of by people like me.' Prescott.
.
What wonderful parents the 'Lard' must have had to have such foresight to give the 'Lard' such a long-winded but appropriate name at his christening long ago.
.
That's when he inadvertently drunk all the water in the font so would never have actually been christened at all if it hadn't been for his dear old Aunty Belle who just happened to have a drop of gin left in her small bottle she had smuggled into the chapel in her underwear.
.
Lardy had undeservedly such thoughtful relatives. All sadly gone now. And even his expensively coiffured wife hates him even though she is now (by default) a 'Laydee' - with all the attendant privileges - as befits those of such elevated status.

love J B Blacketts logic that the claimants are paying to support these scoundrels

perhaps not eh ?

Flackwell wrote:
love J B Blacketts logic that the claimants are paying to support these scoundrels

perhaps not eh ?

That's why their allowances (and those of the incapacitated and other people genuinely incapable of working either through physical or mental problems) are so relatively small and are going to be further reduced. Is that not 'paying to support these scoundrels'
.
'These scoundrels' have just be awarded further undeserved bonuses and pay increases by their own little gangs of thieves and robbers. 'These scoundrels' are totally unaffected by the privations , job losses, cuts etc inflict on the rest of the population - whether in work or not.
.
As the politicians say 'There is only so much to go round' - Well 'these scoundrels' make sure that they are not 'out of pocket' or any other way deprived. Have you not noticed that ?
.
So the divisive logic of our politicians (with whom you may agree) is to starve the unemployed and sick back to work and denigrate them at the same time . The old 'divide and rule' method.
.
Let me inform you - there is no work for them to do and there is not much forthcoming either - unless you believe the weasel words of any of our 'gainfully employed' politicians. There is a lack of 'work' in every country in the world - even Japan or Oz. Some countries have 50% + unemployment. Where are their jobs going to materialized from ?
.
What the politicians are doing is beyond Hypocrisy , Deception and Delusion or just Ineptness - it is beyond contempt.
.
They are the very people who caused the problems in the first place - that applies to all parties. If you want to believe what they say , that's your choice.
.
I do permit myself a degree of cynicism when it comes to politics and religion. I was not born this way ; it is what I have seen and experienced over recent years. So it just my perspective and will not force my views on anybody - unlike some dogmatic creeds insist on.
.
Regards and stand your corner but in a peaceful conciliatory way

J B Blackett wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
love J B Blacketts logic that the claimants are paying to support these scoundrels

perhaps not eh ?

That's why their allowances (and those of the incapacitated and other people genuinely incapable of working either through physical or mental problems) are so relatively small and are going to be further reduced. Is that not 'paying to support these scoundrels'
.
'These scoundrels' have just be awarded further undeserved bonuses and pay increases by their own little gangs of thieves and robbers. 'These scoundrels' are totally unaffected by the privations , job losses, cuts etc inflict on the rest of the population - whether in work or not.
.
As the politicians say 'There is only so much to go round' - Well 'these scoundrels' make sure that they are not 'out of pocket' or any other way deprived. Have you not noticed that ?
.
So the divisive logic of our politicians (with whom you may agree) is to starve the unemployed and sick back to work and denigrate them at the same time . The old 'divide and rule' method.
.
Let me inform you - there is no work for them to do and there is not much forthcoming either - unless you believe the weasel words of any of our 'gainfully employed' politicians. There is a lack of 'work' in every country in the world - even Japan or Oz. Some countries have 50% + unemployment. Where are their jobs going to materialized from ?
.
What the politicians are doing is beyond Hypocrisy , Deception and Delusion or just Ineptness - it is beyond contempt.
.
They are the very people who caused the problems in the first place - that applies to all parties. If you want to believe what they say , that's your choice.
.
I do permit myself a degree of cynicism when it comes to politics and religion. I was not born this way ; it is what I have seen and experienced over recent years. So it just my perspective and will not force my views on anybody - unlike some dogmatic creeds insist on.
.
Regards and stand your corner but in a peaceful conciliatory way

Whilst I agree with you that they are to blame for this mess in the first place, what cannot be overlooked is that benefits have spiralled out of control. I wholly agree that for the genuine people who require benefits, you hear more and more of the feckless who dont. These feckless breed like flies and all the offspring turn out feckless who also have a huge brood of feckless people..... and so the wheel turns and the feckless out number the people who are trying to pay for all this. It is a relative drop in the ocean to chase the afore mentioned politicians etc compared to the huge amount of money wasted on unecessary payments to people who have no will to work. Tighten up on how the benefits are dished out and people will HAVE to try to better themselves and would stop people from other countries trying for a free ride too!

WHERE IS OUR ICE BANK MONEY?
JUDGE

MOVE THE COUNCIL TO INDIA.
JUDGE

I AM AWARE OF COUNCIL TENANTS WHO ARE NOT LIVING IN THEIR HOMES BUT RENTING THEM OUT !!!
THE COUNCIL ARE RUBBISH.....
JUDGE

tigeran wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
love J B Blacketts logic that the claimants are paying to support these scoundrels

perhaps not eh ?

That's why their allowances (and those of the incapacitated and other people genuinely incapable of working either through physical or mental problems) are so relatively small and are going to be further reduced. Is that not 'paying to support these scoundrels'
.
'These scoundrels' have just be awarded further undeserved bonuses and pay increases by their own little gangs of thieves and robbers. 'These scoundrels' are totally unaffected by the privations , job losses, cuts etc inflict on the rest of the population - whether in work or not.
.
As the politicians say 'There is only so much to go round' - Well 'these scoundrels' make sure that they are not 'out of pocket' or any other way deprived. Have you not noticed that ?
.
So the divisive logic of our politicians (with whom you may agree) is to starve the unemployed and sick back to work and denigrate them at the same time . The old 'divide and rule' method.
.
Let me inform you - there is no work for them to do and there is not much forthcoming either - unless you believe the weasel words of any of our 'gainfully employed' politicians. There is a lack of 'work' in every country in the world - even Japan or Oz. Some countries have 50% + unemployment. Where are their jobs going to materialized from ?
.
What the politicians are doing is beyond Hypocrisy , Deception and Delusion or just Ineptness - it is beyond contempt.
.
They are the very people who caused the problems in the first place - that applies to all parties. If you want to believe what they say , that's your choice.
.
I do permit myself a degree of cynicism when it comes to politics and religion. I was not born this way ; it is what I have seen and experienced over recent years. So it just my perspective and will not force my views on anybody - unlike some dogmatic creeds insist on.
.
Regards and stand your corner but in a peaceful conciliatory way

Whilst I agree with you that they are to blame for this mess in the first place, what cannot be overlooked is that benefits have spiralled out of control. I wholly agree that for the genuine people who require benefits, you hear more and more of the feckless who dont. These feckless breed like flies and all the offspring turn out feckless who also have a huge brood of feckless people..... and so the wheel turns and the feckless out number the people who are trying to pay for all this. It is a relative drop in the ocean to chase the afore mentioned politicians etc compared to the huge amount of money wasted on unecessary payments to people who have no will to work. Tighten up on how the benefits are dished out and people will HAVE to try to better themselves and would stop people from other countries trying for a free ride too!

There is No Work for the unemployed and there is No Prospect for it in spite of the what the current crop of deceitful but inept and clueless politicians declaim constantly.
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There are now just too many people in this world and too few jobs to occupy them. It's not like 'the good old days' of full employment .
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Look around you or even further afield for proof. Those days are gone - not to return - unless enforced poorly paid labour is brought in , but that's not the answer just a cruel transient fix. But I would not put our wonderful politicians to try it out to see what happens !!
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What the politicians and their associates want is for the people at the bottom of the heap to fight each other for the lowest paying , lowest status , dead-end positions in our society . A society the politicians are fashioning to suit and benefit the people strutting about on the top of the heap of the now pile of rubble now rather ironically called British Society.
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If that means shipping in more desperate people to compete for these jobs that's what the politicians will do - because it suits them - but probably not anybody else.
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This the sort of thing that politicians do - the opposite of what people actually want or need. But the politicians and their friends are arrogant and uncaring in their own protected and invulnerable little worlds. Like the top layer in some 'unbelievable' futuristic Schwarzenegger film.
.
Or think they are - but things may change - usually with a lot of innocent people suffering in the meantime. That might just feasibly happen in the UK

miccles wrote:
I think i know which option WDC will go for anyway, it won't be a comprmise, and it won't be cut the benefits either.

If they cut benefits I suspect they will increase the problems which social services and police (paid for out of council tax) are there to deal with.

If they increase council tax a minority of voters will suffer.

MAYBE they will compromise - volunteer librarians et cetera and reduced increases of council tax - already frozen for one year.

williamjames wrote:
Time to get back to basics.

WDC should cut all discressionary spend, reduce the number of staff employed and concentrate on delivery of the services required by staute. I am sure that the Council's Chief Executive, paid over £120,000 a year, could easily come up with the necessary cahnges.

BCC should take the same line. The first cut should be to the BCC Chief Executives grossley inflated salary.

Some of the svings could then be spent on the Police who we need.

This reminds me of a piece by Simon Jenkins a year or more ago where he said the (recently arrived) coalition government would achieve painless cuts by sprinkling 'the magic dust of efficiency savings' on all their problems.

FH Leveller wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

This is just the politics of envy.

Did the bankers hold a gun to people’s heads and demand they take irresponsible loans they could never hope to pay back?

The bankers took advantage of lax regulation and loose monetary policy championed (in this country) by the socialists. Readily available credit with little accountability led to a boom fuelled by ever increasing spending and financed by debt. Everyone who voted for Labours Ponzi scheme shares some responsibility for this mess.

When a weak and ineffectual Tories did try to make a case for lower public spending they were shouted down by the usual suspects in the trade unions and media and hammered in the opinion polls.

The Ponzi scheme was the city's and the international financial system’s – notably in the US - watched over in this country by a benevolent New Labour Government intent on reassuring the rich that they would only exercise 'light touch' regulation and a 'light hand on the tiller' – remember how intensely relaxed New Labour was with people being filthy rich?

No one in the Conservative party objected at the time.

Our present situation is the result of both parties refusing to exercise any principle in overseeing the economy.

Well said J B Blackett, but I don't think WDC has the power to deal with that! For all those wanting benefits cut, 2 years ago my daughter held down a well-paid job, had never claimed anything and paid all her taxes. Then she was made redundant like so many others - losing her BUPA and other in-work benefits with her job. She had savings, she didn't claim, put in lots of job applications and attended several interviews; the day she had a second interview for her dream job she woke up with her legs numb and unable to walk. After months of increasing illness and tests, it became clear she has MS and is not yet stable but keeps relapsing. She used all her savings, sold her car and was forced to claim; but they give her only a tiny payment towards her rent because she's under 35 (just). As a disabled pensioner, I'm having to help her out and can now not pay my own bills. Do you genuinely believe it right to further reduce this? Can you be sure of your own continued good health?

disgruntledof Kingshill wrote:
Well said J B Blackett, but I don't think WDC has the power to deal with that! For all those wanting benefits cut, 2 years ago my daughter held down a well-paid job, had never claimed anything and paid all her taxes. Then she was made redundant like so many others - losing her BUPA and other in-work benefits with her job. She had savings, she didn't claim, put in lots of job applications and attended several interviews; the day she had a second interview for her dream job she woke up with her legs numb and unable to walk. After months of increasing illness and tests, it became clear she has MS and is not yet stable but keeps relapsing. She used all her savings, sold her car and was forced to claim; but they give her only a tiny payment towards her rent because she's under 35 (just). As a disabled pensioner, I'm having to help her out and can now not pay my own bills. Do you genuinely believe it right to further reduce this? Can you be sure of your own continued good health?

I don't think anyone with a scrap of humanity would begrudge your daughter anything. I do hope that ATOS do not get their hands on her :(((

FH Leveller wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

This is just the politics of envy.

Did the bankers hold a gun to people’s heads and demand they take irresponsible loans they could never hope to pay back?

The bankers took advantage of lax regulation and loose monetary policy championed (in this country) by the socialists. Readily available credit with little accountability led to a boom fuelled by ever increasing spending and financed by debt. Everyone who voted for Labours Ponzi scheme shares some responsibility for this mess.

When a weak and ineffectual Tories did try to make a case for lower public spending they were shouted down by the usual suspects in the trade unions and media and hammered in the opinion polls.

In any case we should be able to rely on the professionalism of the financial sector - God knows they were (and are) paid enough - it wasn't average people taking out HP contracts at the limit of their capabilities that caused the present crisis - it was the illusion that this was sfae and made sense fostered by the banks at the behest of bank management at the highest level and other Masters of the Universe and winked at by the Bank of England (see: http://www.guardian.
co.uk/business/2011/
mar/05/mervyn-king-b
ankers-bonuses)

Correct - All parties were in on the deceitful schemes to bankrupt this country and all the 'lower orders'. .
.
And a lot of bankers were nothing better than cheats, liars and deceivers or self-deluded but highly paid idiots could run legalistic rings round ordinary gullible folk. Using big words and even bigger lies
.
It was not the brain child of just New Labour - although Blair and Brown did try at one time to claim credit for such rank stupidity - but the 'New Tories' under IDS and Cameron encouraged cheered and applauded all these wicked projects from the sidelines as the country was forced down the pan.
.
It takes a lot of highly trained lawyers and amateur accountants with lower grade degrees in PPE to make such an unholy mess of everything. And they are still at it.
.
However Mr Blair is thankfully (for him) out of it , while he sits on his ever-increasing mountain of wealth and ill-gotten gains and sinisterly cackles as he spends his spare time counting all the money as he gloats over it (and us) in the wee small hours.
.
All politicians were party to this deception - the same lot who cheated on their expenses. And all the bankers were 'in the know' ; it wasn't just the despicable greedy ratbag Fred the Shred. If some people cannot be seen the con tricks that were carried out by these scoundrels , then they are in denial for reasons best known to themselves.

J B Blackett wrote:
Correct - All parties were in on the deceitful schemes to bankrupt this country and all the 'lower orders'. .
.
And a lot of bankers were nothing better than cheats, liars and deceivers or self-deluded but highly paid idiots could run legalistic rings round ordinary gullible folk. Using big words and even bigger lies
.
It was not the brain child of just New Labour - although Blair and Brown did try at one time to claim credit for such rank stupidity - but the 'New Tories' under IDS and Cameron encouraged cheered and applauded all these wicked projects from the sidelines as the country was forced down the pan.
.
It takes a lot of highly trained lawyers and amateur accountants with lower grade degrees in PPE to make such an unholy mess of everything. And they are still at it.
.
However Mr Blair is thankfully (for him) out of it , while he sits on his ever-increasing mountain of wealth and ill-gotten gains and sinisterly cackles as he spends his spare time counting all the money as he gloats over it (and us) in the wee small hours.
.
All politicians were party to this deception - the same lot who cheated on their expenses. And all the bankers were 'in the know' ; it wasn't just the despicable greedy ratbag Fred the Shred. If some people cannot be seen the con tricks that were carried out by these scoundrels , then they are in denial for reasons best known to themselves.

If LIBOR can be rigged then what chance do the rest of us stand?

Darren Hayday wrote:
cut benefits!

Raise taxes for those on high incomes and big pensions

FH Leveller wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

This is just the politics of envy.

Did the bankers hold a gun to people’s heads and demand they take irresponsible loans they could never hope to pay back?

The bankers took advantage of lax regulation and loose monetary policy championed (in this country) by the socialists. Readily available credit with little accountability led to a boom fuelled by ever increasing spending and financed by debt. Everyone who voted for Labours Ponzi scheme shares some responsibility for this mess.

When a weak and ineffectual Tories did try to make a case for lower public spending they were shouted down by the usual suspects in the trade unions and media and hammered in the opinion polls.

Dear FH L you forgot to put inverted commas around the word 'socialist' in the phrase

The bankers took advantage of lax regulation and loose monetary policy championed (in this country) by the socialists.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Correct - All parties were in on the deceitful schemes to bankrupt this country and all the 'lower orders'. .
.
And a lot of bankers were nothing better than cheats, liars and deceivers or self-deluded but highly paid idiots could run legalistic rings round ordinary gullible folk. Using big words and even bigger lies
.
It was not the brain child of just New Labour - although Blair and Brown did try at one time to claim credit for such rank stupidity - but the 'New Tories' under IDS and Cameron encouraged cheered and applauded all these wicked projects from the sidelines as the country was forced down the pan.
.
It takes a lot of highly trained lawyers and amateur accountants with lower grade degrees in PPE to make such an unholy mess of everything. And they are still at it.
.
However Mr Blair is thankfully (for him) out of it , while he sits on his ever-increasing mountain of wealth and ill-gotten gains and sinisterly cackles as he spends his spare time counting all the money as he gloats over it (and us) in the wee small hours.
.
All politicians were party to this deception - the same lot who cheated on their expenses. And all the bankers were 'in the know' ; it wasn't just the despicable greedy ratbag Fred the Shred. If some people cannot be seen the con tricks that were carried out by these scoundrels , then they are in denial for reasons best known to themselves.

If LIBOR can be rigged then what chance do the rest of us stand?

Correct also.
.
The people with their hands on the steering wheel of this out-of-control control they call the Free Market are the ones who are driving us down The Road to Destruction.
.
We are mere dead weight / baggage to them - exploitable , now inconvenient and totally expendable.
.
These 'people in control of things' will be the cause of great suffering and despair- because we have given them (out of gullibility or by default) the ability to manipulate us. They are either crazy , deluded or perhaps just evil plotters from Hell with a Death Project for the human race - and perhaps with The English as a pilot project / starter scheme

'out of control vehicle ' ie . sorry

How about those union and counsel workers taking a wage cut first say 10% and then see what is left to leach off the hard working worker.

The Judge wrote:
WHERE IS OUR ICE BANK MONEY? JUDGE

Being returned in full with interest.

williamjames wrote:

The Judge wrote:
WHERE IS OUR ICE BANK MONEY? JUDGE

Being returned in full with interest.

LANDISBANK WENT BUST SO I HARDLY THINK SO....WHY NOT FLOG THOSE OLD BALLS...
JUDGE

The Judge wrote:

williamjames wrote:

The Judge wrote:
WHERE IS OUR ICE BANK MONEY? JUDGE

Being returned in full with interest.

LANDISBANK WENT BUST SO I HARDLY THINK SO....WHY NOT FLOG THOSE OLD BALLS...
JUDGE

Surely the flogging of old balls and lunchboxes is ivor's job.

J B Blackett wrote:
Correct - All parties were in on the deceitful schemes to bankrupt this country and all the 'lower orders'. .
.
And a lot of bankers were nothing better than cheats, liars and deceivers or self-deluded but highly paid idiots could run legalistic rings round ordinary gullible folk. Using big words and even bigger lies
.
It was not the brain child of just New Labour - although Blair and Brown did try at one time to claim credit for such rank stupidity - but the 'New Tories' under IDS and Cameron encouraged cheered and applauded all these wicked projects from the sidelines as the country was forced down the pan.
.
It takes a lot of highly trained lawyers and amateur accountants with lower grade degrees in PPE to make such an unholy mess of everything. And they are still at it.
.
However Mr Blair is thankfully (for him) out of it , while he sits on his ever-increasing mountain of wealth and ill-gotten gains and sinisterly cackles as he spends his spare time counting all the money as he gloats over it (and us) in the wee small hours.
.
All politicians were party to this deception - the same lot who cheated on their expenses. And all the bankers were 'in the know' ; it wasn't just the despicable greedy ratbag Fred the Shred. If some people cannot be seen the con tricks that were carried out by these scoundrels , then they are in denial for reasons best known to themselves.

No they weren't, Vince Cable was warning of the dangers years before the crash but Labour ignored him.

It's why Labour was booted out for wrecking our economy.

yog wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Correct - All parties were in on the deceitful schemes to bankrupt this country and all the 'lower orders'. .
.
And a lot of bankers were nothing better than cheats, liars and deceivers or self-deluded but highly paid idiots could run legalistic rings round ordinary gullible folk. Using big words and even bigger lies
.
It was not the brain child of just New Labour - although Blair and Brown did try at one time to claim credit for such rank stupidity - but the 'New Tories' under IDS and Cameron encouraged cheered and applauded all these wicked projects from the sidelines as the country was forced down the pan.
.
It takes a lot of highly trained lawyers and amateur accountants with lower grade degrees in PPE to make such an unholy mess of everything. And they are still at it.
.
However Mr Blair is thankfully (for him) out of it , while he sits on his ever-increasing mountain of wealth and ill-gotten gains and sinisterly cackles as he spends his spare time counting all the money as he gloats over it (and us) in the wee small hours.
.
All politicians were party to this deception - the same lot who cheated on their expenses. And all the bankers were 'in the know' ; it wasn't just the despicable greedy ratbag Fred the Shred. If some people cannot be seen the con tricks that were carried out by these scoundrels , then they are in denial for reasons best known to themselves.

No they weren't, Vince Cable was warning of the dangers years before the crash but Labour ignored him.

It's why Labour was booted out for wrecking our economy.

'yog'

I can't help thinking that the Conservative party and its city supporters don't come out of this with perfectly clean hands either.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

williamjames wrote:

The Judge wrote:
WHERE IS OUR ICE BANK MONEY? JUDGE

Being returned in full with interest.

LANDISBANK WENT BUST SO I HARDLY THINK SO....WHY NOT FLOG THOSE OLD BALLS...
JUDGE

Surely the flogging of old balls and lunchboxes is ivor's job.

GOOD ONE T.E.
JUDGE

J B Blackett wrote:

tigeran wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
love J B Blacketts logic that the claimants are paying to support these scoundrels

perhaps not eh ?

That's why their allowances (and those of the incapacitated and other people genuinely incapable of working either through physical or mental problems) are so relatively small and are going to be further reduced. Is that not 'paying to support these scoundrels'
.
'These scoundrels' have just be awarded further undeserved bonuses and pay increases by their own little gangs of thieves and robbers. 'These scoundrels' are totally unaffected by the privations , job losses, cuts etc inflict on the rest of the population - whether in work or not.
.
As the politicians say 'There is only so much to go round' - Well 'these scoundrels' make sure that they are not 'out of pocket' or any other way deprived. Have you not noticed that ?
.
So the divisive logic of our politicians (with whom you may agree) is to starve the unemployed and sick back to work and denigrate them at the same time . The old 'divide and rule' method.
.
Let me inform you - there is no work for them to do and there is not much forthcoming either - unless you believe the weasel words of any of our 'gainfully employed' politicians. There is a lack of 'work' in every country in the world - even Japan or Oz. Some countries have 50% + unemployment. Where are their jobs going to materialized from ?
.
What the politicians are doing is beyond Hypocrisy , Deception and Delusion or just Ineptness - it is beyond contempt.
.
They are the very people who caused the problems in the first place - that applies to all parties. If you want to believe what they say , that's your choice.
.
I do permit myself a degree of cynicism when it comes to politics and religion. I was not born this way ; it is what I have seen and experienced over recent years. So it just my perspective and will not force my views on anybody - unlike some dogmatic creeds insist on.
.
Regards and stand your corner but in a peaceful conciliatory way

Whilst I agree with you that they are to blame for this mess in the first place, what cannot be overlooked is that benefits have spiralled out of control. I wholly agree that for the genuine people who require benefits, you hear more and more of the feckless who dont. These feckless breed like flies and all the offspring turn out feckless who also have a huge brood of feckless people..... and so the wheel turns and the feckless out number the people who are trying to pay for all this. It is a relative drop in the ocean to chase the afore mentioned politicians etc compared to the huge amount of money wasted on unecessary payments to people who have no will to work. Tighten up on how the benefits are dished out and people will HAVE to try to better themselves and would stop people from other countries trying for a free ride too!

There is No Work for the unemployed and there is No Prospect for it in spite of the what the current crop of deceitful but inept and clueless politicians declaim constantly.
.
There are now just too many people in this world and too few jobs to occupy them. It's not like 'the good old days' of full employment .
.
Look around you or even further afield for proof. Those days are gone - not to return - unless enforced poorly paid labour is brought in , but that's not the answer just a cruel transient fix. But I would not put our wonderful politicians to try it out to see what happens !!
.
What the politicians and their associates want is for the people at the bottom of the heap to fight each other for the lowest paying , lowest status , dead-end positions in our society . A society the politicians are fashioning to suit and benefit the people strutting about on the top of the heap of the now pile of rubble now rather ironically called British Society.
.
If that means shipping in more desperate people to compete for these jobs that's what the politicians will do - because it suits them - but probably not anybody else.
.
This the sort of thing that politicians do - the opposite of what people actually want or need. But the politicians and their friends are arrogant and uncaring in their own protected and invulnerable little worlds. Like the top layer in some 'unbelievable' futuristic Schwarzenegger film.
.
Or think they are - but things may change - usually with a lot of innocent people suffering in the meantime. That might just feasibly happen in the UK

When has there ever been full employment? There is work available, it may not be what people want to do but it’s there. Immigration has been used in this country for years to fill jobs the indigenous workforce won’t do because benefits are too high. Why bother working if you can make more money off state hand-outs?

You envisage politicians wanting people at the bottom of the heap to fight each other for the lowest paying , lowest status , dead-end positions. The bottom of the heap is making a career out of state dependency. Where is the self-respect in that?

This isn’t about denigrating people in genuine need of support. The disabled deserve and need our backing, as do those who are committed to caring for them. People who have become temporarily unemployed through no fault of their own should be helped back into work. There are many instance when help is needed, but far too many when that help abused.

When politicians try to change the system they are accused of being out of touch and uncaring. Why become a politician? It’s a thankless task.

There’s much more money in banking.

disgruntledof Kingshill wrote:
Well said J B Blackett, but I don't think WDC has the power to deal with that! For all those wanting benefits cut, 2 years ago my daughter held down a well-paid job, had never claimed anything and paid all her taxes. Then she was made redundant like so many others - losing her BUPA and other in-work benefits with her job. She had savings, she didn't claim, put in lots of job applications and attended several interviews; the day she had a second interview for her dream job she woke up with her legs numb and unable to walk. After months of increasing illness and tests, it became clear she has MS and is not yet stable but keeps relapsing. She used all her savings, sold her car and was forced to claim; but they give her only a tiny payment towards her rent because she's under 35 (just). As a disabled pensioner, I'm having to help her out and can now not pay my own bills. Do you genuinely believe it right to further reduce this? Can you be sure of your own continued good health?

Your daughter is the type of vulnerable person who needs benifits and my heart goes out to her. Its the other scum bags who make a living from benefits, never worked and never will that should have benefits taken away. They are stealing from your daughter in my opinion. All the best to her.

here here

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

So you believe and swallow everything that all the proven liars (also known as 'politicians') are saying..
.
History of recent years proves that they can never be trusted. But if you are firm in the belief or want to believe they speak nothing but the truth then that's your choice.
.
I have reluctantly learned to be rather sceptical as I try vainly to match up the things they say , the things they do and what actually happens, I'm afraid
.

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

sai-diva wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.

I do agree with with the modern practice of sterilization. But only for babies bottles , dirty bird tables and Tony Blair's wallet. You could catch something awful from them if they are not cleaned on a regular basis.
.
It's a funny old world that makes us subject to the whims and rule of the very people who got us in this fine mess in the first place.
.
A bit like handing over the all finances , authority and privileges of office of the bankrupted Chicago to Al Capone (and his deputy Bugsy Malone).
.
Still that's what people appear to want and voted for.
.
Mind you if there was only camel dung to eat, it is possible a lot of people would give it a go and swallow it down in apparent gratitude.
.
I'm afraid I would starve or go and look for a better food source. There must be something better than that - isn't there ? Please let there be something better than all this S**T we are being given.

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.

Please enlighten us with your views on how to enforce a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants would be allowed to have?
Could you please also provide proof that there are LOADS of fraudulent claims? I would concede some, but much like the figures for people who claim money for being disabled (about half to one % according to govt, figures) I believe the amount who claim but are not entitled to benefit, and the amount of benefit they get, is vastly overstated. I think it really depends on where you get your information from.
Again we argue over pennies, whilst those responsible take billions from our country.

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

That'll be "As soon as this blog closes".

tigeran wrote:
sai-diva wrote:
J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.Only'Tigeran' could write a sentence beginning:

Well, not sure about steralization but ...

washondo wrote:

A VOTER wrote:
Well said J B Blackett.

I agree with you 100%

When does the revolution start?

That'll be "As soon as this blog closes".

http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=B96qKs4-E
I8

I wonder how many of the people who make up the 64% in favour of benefit cuts realise that Council Tax 'benefit' simply means that after providing proof you are out of work and have no income and savings less than £16,000 you are allowed to not PAY council tax?

and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

sai-diva wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.

Please enlighten us with your views on how to enforce a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants would be allowed to have?
Could you please also provide proof that there are LOADS of fraudulent claims? I would concede some, but much like the figures for people who claim money for being disabled (about half to one % according to govt, figures) I believe the amount who claim but are not entitled to benefit, and the amount of benefit they get, is vastly overstated. I think it really depends on where you get your information from.
Again we argue over pennies, whilst those responsible take billions from our country.

The country is strewn with lowlife and supported by by strange people like yourself who live in ivory towers. If you are on benefits then the best solution would be for them to not have children at all as we will only have to bail them out. I think it best we leave it there as you are one of the 'bleeding heart' brigade that brought this country down in the first place.

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

WHY NOT?
JUDGE

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:
tigeran wrote:
sai-diva wrote:
J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.Only'Tigeran' could write a sentence beginning:

Well, not sure about steralization but ... Sorry, I got bored after the "cut polititians....." dribble........

BRING BACK THE POLL TAX
JUDGE

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Tigeran:





You are missing the point - people are NOT taxed on the basis of what they earn at a LOCAL level - when were you last taxed by WDC on a PAYE basis - you paid rates based on where you lived didn't you?

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Under the present sytem I used to pay the same rates as my next door neighbour her boyfriend and her four wage-earning children and the same as Doris two doors up who was a widow on her pension.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Tigeran:





You are missing the point - people are NOT taxed on the basis of what they earn at a LOCAL level - when were you last taxed by WDC on a PAYE basis - you paid rates based on where you lived didn't you?

Just because someone earns more money than their next door neighbour why the hell should they be taxed more at a LOCAL level? They already pay more at source, they are not getting any more out of the local councils in terms of facilities etc so WHY?!!! That is a complete and utter socialist 'yours is bigger than mine so I want more' view! I think YOU are mssing the point!!

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Under the present sytem I used to pay the same rates as my next door neighbour her boyfriend and her four wage-earning children and the same as Doris two doors up who was a widow on her pension.

SO HAVE MORE CHILDREN THEN!!

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

THE JUDGE IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
JUDGE FOR COUNCILLOR....JUDGE FOR PM.

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.

Please enlighten us with your views on how to enforce a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants would be allowed to have?
Could you please also provide proof that there are LOADS of fraudulent claims? I would concede some, but much like the figures for people who claim money for being disabled (about half to one % according to govt, figures) I believe the amount who claim but are not entitled to benefit, and the amount of benefit they get, is vastly overstated. I think it really depends on where you get your information from.
Again we argue over pennies, whilst those responsible take billions from our country.

The country is strewn with lowlife and supported by by strange people like yourself who live in ivory towers. If you are on benefits then the best solution would be for them to not have children at all as we will only have to bail them out. I think it best we leave it there as you are one of the 'bleeding heart' brigade that brought this country down in the first place.

Again i ask, how would you impose a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants can have? What if they reach you limit and then become unemployed.
It's all very well coming up with your lovely 'daily mail' style headline statements but what about the practicalities? What if a woman on welfare with kids becomes pregnant? What then? Forced abortion? Made to live on the street? You really don't think things through before you hit the keyboard do you?
Also I do wish you'd make up your mind, am I a 'pikey' living in a caravan, or am I one of the 'bleeding heart brigade' living in an 'ivory tower', or are you incapable of a reasoned debate without resorting to cheap insults?
I look forward to your response.

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Tigeran:





You are missing the point - people are NOT taxed on the basis of what they earn at a LOCAL level - when were you last taxed by WDC on a PAYE basis - you paid rates based on where you lived didn't you?

Just because someone earns more money than their next door neighbour why the hell should they be taxed more at a LOCAL level? They already pay more at source, they are not getting any more out of the local councils in terms of facilities etc so WHY?!!! That is a complete and utter socialist 'yours is bigger than mine so I want more' view! I think YOU are mssing the point!!

In that case why should they be taxed more at a national level?

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Tigeran:





You are missing the point - people are NOT taxed on the basis of what they earn at a LOCAL level - when were you last taxed by WDC on a PAYE basis - you paid rates based on where you lived didn't you?

Just because someone earns more money than their next door neighbour why the hell should they be taxed more at a LOCAL level? They already pay more at source, they are not getting any more out of the local councils in terms of facilities etc so WHY?!!! That is a complete and utter socialist 'yours is bigger than mine so I want more' view! I think YOU are mssing the point!!

In that case why should they be taxed more at a national level?

Why not PAYE at local and national level?

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

The Judge wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

Flackwell wrote:
and what would you have - someone with £16k+ in savings not having to contribute to the system ?

The point I am making is that the 'benefit' these people receive is that they are allowed to not contribute - they don't actually receive anything.

COUNCIL TAX IS JUST THAT......A TAX AND IT SHOULD BE BASED NOT ON ANTIQUATED OUTDATED PROPERTY VALUES THAT ARE DUE FOR A REVALUATION BUT BASED ON A PERSONS EARNINGS. BRING BACK THE POLL TAX. WE MAY HAVE ANOTHER RIOT BUT HEY AT LEAST IT MEANS EVERYONE PAYS AND CONTRIBUTES IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES....
JUDGE

I COMPLETELY agree with that - Poll Tax is one of a couple of things Maggie got right (Falklands was the other one) and it is applying to local government taxation the same principle that is applied to national government - tax people on what they earn not where they live.

People are already taxed on what they earn, its called PAYE. What on earth makes you think people should pay even more just because they earn more? This is all very communist!!

Doesn't sound communistic to me.
.
Did you know that Stalin , Mousy Dung , Pol Pot , Mr Gorbachov , Lenin , Trotsky , Mr Ceausescu etc paid No Tax at All.
.
Mind you neither do the Saudi Royal family - but they do display their bountiful generosity by providing all their own indigenous citizens with completely free sand and colourful buckets to put it all in. All the tourists and guest workers have to buy their own
.
And they have lots and lots of friends everywhere (as long as the oil lasts). And they are very religious too. And it is a really big family - I am sure there are no communists amongst any of them. Just as there isn't amongst all the people at the top in all those ex-Soviet countries.

sai-diva wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

J B Blackett wrote:
Cut politicians and bankers wages and stop their second , third ,fourth jobs including part-time highly-paid directorships where they attend for 1 day a year.

These are the people who got us into the unholy mess - and then they inflict cuts and taxes on the rest of us.
And make sure they are the least effected by what they do.
.
They are grasping , greedy , selfish , callous , uncaring people running this country - for a while now. Remember Tony Blair ? The mega-millilonaire who said there was 'no money in politics' ?
.
Well for such an a*** to make so much money , the ones who are good at it must be billionaires and more by now. Where's he keep it all ?

The ordinary tax-payer , benefit claimants , the incapacitated , the old , the young ARE paying to support these scoundrels just like the poor support all the top layers in almost every country in the world.
.
The politicians / bankers and their ilk are the ones who have stolen your money / assets and stashed it away (in property , art treasures , gold bars , antiques etc) and it just circulates around the top echelons as they swap things between themselves. No crumbs fall from the table.
.
These liars/cheats/crooks are the real Benefit Claimants - as everything benefits them. And they are the continuing source and cause of our financial problems - but like all liars and cowardly culprits they blame other people.
.
What ever happened to the courageous robust fair-minded English people and their progressive , reformist or even revolutionary spirit. Diluted and poured into the dust ?
.
This country has been in retreat under inept rule for the last few years and it will be work houses and Poor Laws next. Unless .......
.
You read it here first.

Well said,whilst we argue over a few millions, the multi millionaires laugh. If all those super rich paid the tax due on their incomes, rather than using tax 'avoidance' schemes that are closed to the likes of us, it would pay the nhs bill, and leave change.
The politics of envy is poorly paid workers being envious of those on benefits, seeing them all as scroungers, who don't want to work, whilst forgetting that there is very little work out there. Instead of making them and those not born in this country into scapegoats, we should be getting angry at those who got us into this position in the first place, those who tell us that they know better than us, but have no idea about the basics of good housekeeping.
Don't forget that benefits will be going down now as the govt. is not going to raise them in line with inflation, it will be the children that suffer most. I'm not going to invoke 'godwin's law' but we know what kind of regime inflict sterilisation upon their poor.

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits due to the fact they dont want to get a job (yes there are LOADS of them).
If you cant afford children then dont have them. Most decent working couples have to make that decision at one stage or another so I cannot see why the feckless are given the money to breed prodigious amounts of young.

Please enlighten us with your views on how to enforce a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants would be allowed to have?
Could you please also provide proof that there are LOADS of fraudulent claims? I would concede some, but much like the figures for people who claim money for being disabled (about half to one % according to govt, figures) I believe the amount who claim but are not entitled to benefit, and the amount of benefit they get, is vastly overstated. I think it really depends on where you get your information from.
Again we argue over pennies, whilst those responsible take billions from our country.

The country is strewn with lowlife and supported by by strange people like yourself who live in ivory towers. If you are on benefits then the best solution would be for them to not have children at all as we will only have to bail them out. I think it best we leave it there as you are one of the 'bleeding heart' brigade that brought this country down in the first place.

Again i ask, how would you impose a cap on the amount of children benefit claimants can have? What if they reach you limit and then become unemployed.
It's all very well coming up with your lovely 'daily mail' style headline statements but what about the practicalities? What if a woman on welfare with kids becomes pregnant? What then? Forced abortion? Made to live on the street? You really don't think things through before you hit the keyboard do you?
Also I do wish you'd make up your mind, am I a '****' living in a caravan, or am I one of the 'bleeding heart brigade' living in an 'ivory tower', or are you incapable of a reasoned debate without resorting to cheap insults?
I look forward to your response.

If your on benefits you should not have children it really is that simple. If like you say it happens AFTER you are pregnant etc then fare enough. You know exactly the 'type' of claimant I refer to but choose not to for the sake of an argument. Your point is completely valid and I actually agree with you, please, please, please realise I am talking about the families that make benefits their sole income for generations. There are lots of them, they exist and you know they do.I completely agree with benefits when administered for the right reasons. I have no desire whatsoever to pay for someone to have loads of children, far more than for example I could afford to have, simply because they can knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer and actually MAKE money the more children they have. Do you have first hand experience of these people and just how far reaching they are? I have so I feel I am qualified to comment.
Cant afford them? Too bad. I now await your response.

It is difficult to just say cut the benefits. However, those that could work that don't should be put to some use for example litter picking, they would soon decide to get a paid job no matter what it is! But as some have already said, its unlikely to affect those people that can't be bothered and affect those of us that need a little help from time to time. They could also cut back those crisis loans that they just seem to hand out and don't check up on!!!;

I blame THE SCAPEGOATS!

loopsy wrote:
It is difficult to just say cut the benefits. However, those that could work that don't should be put to some use for example litter picking, they would soon decide to get a paid job no matter what it is! But as some have already said, its unlikely to affect those people that can't be bothered and affect those of us that need a little help from time to time. They could also cut back those crisis loans that they just seem to hand out and don't check up on!!!;

When I was a child we had full employment and people remarked grimly that we could never return to pre-war levels of unemployment - now we have and we are facing the same dilemmas people faced then with the same scapegoating:

'Look after the unemployment, and the Budget will look after itself.' (Keynes.)

Just found some more topical stuff:

http://rortybomb.wor
dpress.com/2012/03/0
6/vsp-historical-tri
p-also-keynes-look-a
fter-unemployment-an
d-the-budget-will-lo
ok-after-itself/

Just found some more topical stuff:

http://rortybomb.wor
dpress.com/2012/03/0
6/vsp-historical-tri
p-also-keynes-look-a
fter-unemployment-an
d-the-budget-will-lo
ok-after-itself/

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

loopsy wrote:
It is difficult to just say cut the benefits. However, those that could work that don't should be put to some use for example litter picking, they would soon decide to get a paid job no matter what it is! But as some have already said, its unlikely to affect those people that can't be bothered and affect those of us that need a little help from time to time. They could also cut back those crisis loans that they just seem to hand out and don't check up on!!!;

When I was a child we had full employment and people remarked grimly that we could never return to pre-war levels of unemployment - now we have and we are facing the same dilemmas people faced then with the same scapegoating:

'Look after the unemployment, and the Budget will look after itself.' (Keynes.)

Eh? When was ther EVER 100% empolyment? Faced by the same dilemmas as today? The state benefits were nothing like they are today, they were as they should be, a safety net to fall onto should you fall on hard times, not a way of life like it is today. Dilemas then were a world apart from today in most aspects.

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

loopsy wrote:
It is difficult to just say cut the benefits. However, those that could work that don't should be put to some use for example litter picking, they would soon decide to get a paid job no matter what it is! But as some have already said, its unlikely to affect those people that can't be bothered and affect those of us that need a little help from time to time. They could also cut back those crisis loans that they just seem to hand out and don't check up on!!!;

When I was a child we had full employment and people remarked grimly that we could never return to pre-war levels of unemployment - now we have and we are facing the same dilemmas people faced then with the same scapegoating:

'Look after the unemployment, and the Budget will look after itself.' (Keynes.)

“The real tragedy of the poor is the poverty of their aspirations.” (Smith)

If your on benefits you should not have children it really is that simple. If like you say it happens AFTER you are pregnant etc then fare enough. You know exactly the 'type' of claimant I refer to but choose not to for the sake of an argument. Your point is completely valid and I actually agree with you, please, please, please realise I am talking about the families that make benefits their sole income for generations. There are lots of them, they exist and you know they do.I completely agree with benefits when administered for the right reasons. I have no desire whatsoever to pay for someone to have loads of children, far more than for example I could afford to have, simply because they can knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer and actually MAKE money the more children they have. Do you have first hand experience of these people and just how far reaching they are? I have so I feel I am qualified to comment.
Cant afford them? Too bad. I now await your response

Thanks for the lack of insults in your response. can I ask you a few questions before answering?
How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?
According to the dwp £1.2 billion is claimed illegally, do you have any idea how much money is avoided by tax avoidance schemes?
Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?
How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here,
Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment?
Ta.
Now in response to what you say,
Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same? I accept that there are benefit cheats, in all areas of society there will be people who buck the system(look at the bankers),and there are safeguards in place to prevent this already, but there is a danger of returning much hated 'means tested' benefit system,if you were unemployed or sick would you want an inspector coming round insisting that you sell you possessions?
What this policy, and many introduced by this and the previous govt. is doing is making people like yourself take their eye off of the ball.
Country in trouble? Blame those feckless workshy cheats, No money in the pot, must be down to those single mothers(remember that one). The money claimed by 'benefit cheats' pales into insignificance alongside the money used to bail out the banks. You are getting cross with the wrong people.
One other point, in one of your posts, you say that there has never been full employment, you're right, there needs to be a pool of labour for this system to work, at the moment there just aren't enough jobs to go round, graduates with huge debts are fighting for jobs cleaning toilets.
Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?

tigeran wrote:

ImpeturbableLawrence wrote:

loopsy wrote:
It is difficult to just say cut the benefits. However, those that could work that don't should be put to some use for example litter picking, they would soon decide to get a paid job no matter what it is! But as some have already said, its unlikely to affect those people that can't be bothered and affect those of us that need a little help from time to time. They could also cut back those crisis loans that they just seem to hand out and don't check up on!!!;

When I was a child we had full employment and people remarked grimly that we could never return to pre-war levels of unemployment - now we have and we are facing the same dilemmas people faced then with the same scapegoating:

'Look after the unemployment, and the Budget will look after itself.' (Keynes.)

Eh? When was ther EVER 100% empolyment? Faced by the same dilemmas as today? The state benefits were nothing like they are today, they were as they should be, a safety net to fall onto should you fall on hard times, not a way of life like it is today. Dilemas then were a world apart from today in most aspects.

It has been within 3% of total employment - 100% in reality if you take account of people between jobs et cetera, when I was young and we are facing similar dilemmas in a modern setting.

sai-diva wrote:

If your on benefits you should not have children it really is that simple. If like you say it happens AFTER you are pregnant etc then fare enough. You know exactly the 'type' of claimant I refer to but choose not to for the sake of an argument. Your point is completely valid and I actually agree with you, please, please, please realise I am talking about the families that make benefits their sole income for generations. There are lots of them, they exist and you know they do.I completely agree with benefits when administered for the right reasons. I have no desire whatsoever to pay for someone to have loads of children, far more than for example I could afford to have, simply because they can knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer and actually MAKE money the more children they have. Do you have first hand experience of these people and just how far reaching they are? I have so I feel I am qualified to comment.
Cant afford them? Too bad. I now await your response

Thanks for the lack of insults in your response. can I ask you a few questions before answering?
How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?
According to the dwp £1.2 billion is claimed illegally, do you have any idea how much money is avoided by tax avoidance schemes?
Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?
How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here,
Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment?
Ta.
Now in response to what you say,
Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same? I accept that there are benefit cheats, in all areas of society there will be people who buck the system(look at the bankers),and there are safeguards in place to prevent this already, but there is a danger of returning much hated 'means tested' benefit system,if you were unemployed or sick would you want an inspector coming round insisting that you sell you possessions?
What this policy, and many introduced by this and the previous govt. is doing is making people like yourself take their eye off of the ball.
Country in trouble? Blame those feckless workshy cheats, No money in the pot, must be down to those single mothers(remember that one). The money claimed by 'benefit cheats' pales into insignificance alongside the money used to bail out the banks. You are getting cross with the wrong people.
One other point, in one of your posts, you say that there has never been full employment, you're right, there needs to be a pool of labour for this system to work, at the moment there just aren't enough jobs to go round, graduates with huge debts are fighting for jobs cleaning toilets.
Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?

"How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?"

You can never put a cap on the amount of children someone can have as some humans will procreate in abundance with no reponsibility taken or thought of, these are the feckless I speak about. Due to this, a cap on the amount of children someone will recieve benefits for could be implemented. You have more than 2, then you look after them out of your own pocket.


"Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?"

No but I dont blame them as I think the rich are ripped of in this country (I am not a high earner by the way, far from it). I think you will find they DO pay tax but not necessarily on the whole earnings but it will undoubtedly be FAR more even then than any of us will pay in tax.

"How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here"

You never will but a huge reduction in benefits in key areas like the amount of children a family can claim bennefit for as I said above and other loop hole type areas claims can generate from would eventually weed out the serial claimers.

"Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment"

People close to me has been involved with families living on benefits of some sort or another for more than 30 years now, they have seen it all and believe me it is frightening to see how many there are and the mentality of these people. It really is on another planet. I am qualified to comment on this.

"Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same?"

Of course it is! You DONT need a tv, you DONT need a mobile, get a land line, you DONT need sky tv, I could go on with absolute non essentials but wont. Your statement there alone makes me question lotssof things about you!! You cant afford it? Tough luck, you wont die without them.

Yes I agree that the government use this as a distraction but my point is that benefits is used for all the wrong reasons and i also agree with you about the amount of jobs verse amount of people. The problem is everyone EXPECTS to have all the bling just like you showed you think they should whether they work or not and that is the problem, they want it all and the system allows it.

"Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?"

What an absolutley ridiculous question! Of course not! As I have worked all my life, own my own house, decided on no more than 2 children, respect myself and care about where I live I would get absolutely squat all in benefits! I didnt decide to use it as a lifestyle from the start so I (and I expect you) are not 'in the system' and so are screwed if we ever need help!!

I am not against benefits, I just am horrified at the abuse of it. I am sure you know EXACTLY what I mean!!

There are too many people and not enough jobs. And it's going stay like that or get worse.
.
What all the politicians say are just weasel words to pretend otherwise. They have helped to in all sorts of ways to create the problems we now face
.
And it's not just this in country ; it's all over the world. And there is no easy solution - not from the people who run the world at the moment anyway.
.
But in the meantime everybody whether employed or not must be treated equitably and fairly. But I don't have much faith in the current crop of our politicians to do that ; their track record shows just the opposite.
.

J B Blackett wrote:
There are too many people and not enough jobs. And it's going stay like that or get worse.
.
What all the politicians say are just weasel words to pretend otherwise. They have helped to in all sorts of ways to create the problems we now face
.
And it's not just this in country ; it's all over the world. And there is no easy solution - not from the people who run the world at the moment anyway.
.
But in the meantime everybody whether employed or not must be treated equitably and fairly. But I don't have much faith in the current crop of our politicians to do that ; their track record shows just the opposite.
.

Yes.

THE REAL QUESTION IS:
WHERE IS OUR ICE-BANK MONEY AND WHY ARE THOSE IMBECILES WHO LOST IT STILL IN EMPLOYMENT?
JUDGE

I have not read all the comments so apologies if I have repeated someone else's:

Let's not forget the distinction between the type of benefits paid by the council and those paid by the Government, ie, DWP.

DWP pay the unemployed side of things which some, possibly misguidely, link to laziness and 'Jeremy Kyle' guests.

Bucks and Wycombe benefit include those which pay to support the elderly, disabled and young in our area. By support I mean to assist in vital equipment for those who need it such as the disabled and elderly. Do we really wish to put these people at the bottom of the pile?

I make no comment on my feelings for those who sponge the State benefit sytem; it's pretty obvious from some of the above comments what the general concensus is; but there is a bigger picture, which includes some very vulnerable people in our area who need our support.

I am not wealthy, however an extra one pound per month on my Council Tax bill will not harm me; provided it is spent on those who really need it.

bobby698 wrote:
I have not read all the comments so apologies if I have repeated someone else's:

Let's not forget the distinction between the type of benefits paid by the council and those paid by the Government, ie, DWP.

DWP pay the unemployed side of things which some, possibly misguidely, link to laziness and 'Jeremy Kyle' guests.

Bucks and Wycombe benefit include those which pay to support the elderly, disabled and young in our area. By support I mean to assist in vital equipment for those who need it such as the disabled and elderly. Do we really wish to put these people at the bottom of the pile?

I make no comment on my feelings for those who sponge the State benefit sytem; it's pretty obvious from some of the above comments what the general concensus is; but there is a bigger picture, which includes some very vulnerable people in our area who need our support.

I am not wealthy, however an extra one pound per month on my Council Tax bill will not harm me; provided it is spent on those who really need it.

Shame on you for spoiling this with words of sense.

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

If your on benefits you should not have children it really is that simple. If like you say it happens AFTER you are pregnant etc then fare enough. You know exactly the 'type' of claimant I refer to but choose not to for the sake of an argument. Your point is completely valid and I actually agree with you, please, please, please realise I am talking about the families that make benefits their sole income for generations. There are lots of them, they exist and you know they do.I completely agree with benefits when administered for the right reasons. I have no desire whatsoever to pay for someone to have loads of children, far more than for example I could afford to have, simply because they can knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer and actually MAKE money the more children they have. Do you have first hand experience of these people and just how far reaching they are? I have so I feel I am qualified to comment.
Cant afford them? Too bad. I now await your response

Thanks for the lack of insults in your response. can I ask you a few questions before answering?
How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?
According to the dwp £1.2 billion is claimed illegally, do you have any idea how much money is avoided by tax avoidance schemes?
Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?
How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here,
Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment?
Ta.
Now in response to what you say,
Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same? I accept that there are benefit cheats, in all areas of society there will be people who buck the system(look at the bankers),and there are safeguards in place to prevent this already, but there is a danger of returning much hated 'means tested' benefit system,if you were unemployed or sick would you want an inspector coming round insisting that you sell you possessions?
What this policy, and many introduced by this and the previous govt. is doing is making people like yourself take their eye off of the ball.
Country in trouble? Blame those feckless workshy cheats, No money in the pot, must be down to those single mothers(remember that one). The money claimed by 'benefit cheats' pales into insignificance alongside the money used to bail out the banks. You are getting cross with the wrong people.
One other point, in one of your posts, you say that there has never been full employment, you're right, there needs to be a pool of labour for this system to work, at the moment there just aren't enough jobs to go round, graduates with huge debts are fighting for jobs cleaning toilets.
Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?

"How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?"

You can never put a cap on the amount of children someone can have as some humans will procreate in abundance with no reponsibility taken or thought of, these are the feckless I speak about. Due to this, a cap on the amount of children someone will recieve benefits for could be implemented. You have more than 2, then you look after them out of your own pocket.


"Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?"

No but I dont blame them as I think the rich are ripped of in this country (I am not a high earner by the way, far from it). I think you will find they DO pay tax but not necessarily on the whole earnings but it will undoubtedly be FAR more even then than any of us will pay in tax.

"How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here"

You never will but a huge reduction in benefits in key areas like the amount of children a family can claim bennefit for as I said above and other loop hole type areas claims can generate from would eventually weed out the serial claimers.

"Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment"

People close to me has been involved with families living on benefits of some sort or another for more than 30 years now, they have seen it all and believe me it is frightening to see how many there are and the mentality of these people. It really is on another planet. I am qualified to comment on this.

"Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same?"

Of course it is! You DONT need a tv, you DONT need a mobile, get a land line, you DONT need sky tv, I could go on with absolute non essentials but wont. Your statement there alone makes me question lotssof things about you!! You cant afford it? Tough luck, you wont die without them.

Yes I agree that the government use this as a distraction but my point is that benefits is used for all the wrong reasons and i also agree with you about the amount of jobs verse amount of people. The problem is everyone EXPECTS to have all the bling just like you showed you think they should whether they work or not and that is the problem, they want it all and the system allows it.

"Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?"

What an absolutley ridiculous question! Of course not! As I have worked all my life, own my own house, decided on no more than 2 children, respect myself and care about where I live I would get absolutely squat all in benefits! I didnt decide to use it as a lifestyle from the start so I (and I expect you) are not 'in the system' and so are screwed if we ever need help!!

I am not against benefits, I just am horrified at the abuse of it. I am sure you know EXACTLY what I mean!!

You can never put a cap on the amount of children someone can have as some humans will procreate in abundance with no reponsibility taken or thought of, these are the feckless I speak about. Due to this, a cap on the amount of children someone will recieve benefits for could be implemented. You have more than 2, then you look after them out of your own pocket.

So what happens when a couple who have 2 children, who are on benefits and the wife falls pregnant? If the world was as you wish it to be,ie those on benefits live in poverty, then surely, even with the best will in the world, there will not be enough for the children to eat. Malnourishment will follow with all. So ddo we take the children away, with all the costs inherent in that? Do we force the unemployed to take contrception? What about their religious views.
I agree that there is a problem with some of those on benefits, but I think that it is blown out all proportion.
I resent any one who 'breeds' irresponsibly, If I have 2 children and use the rescources provided by my taxes to eduate and keep them healthy, why should I subsidise someone who has 5,6,or 7 children?Bearing in mind that the world has a finite amount of resources are they not being a bit irresponsible?

No but I dont blame them as I think the rich are ripped of in this country (I am not a high earner by the way, far from it). I think you will find they DO pay tax but not necessarily on the whole earnings but it will undoubtedly be FAR more even then than any of us will pay in tax

The rich aren't ripped off in this country, the rich run this country, so they make sure they aren't ripped off.
Amazon pay NO corporation tax in this country, and yet are responsible(in part) for the demise of many small buisinesses,by moving their operations to tax havens they don't pay vat either. Think how rich we would be if they paid their tax liabilities. In America, if you live in America, that's where you pay your tax.

You never will but a huge reduction in benefits in key areas like the amount of children a family can claim bennefit for as I said above and other loop hole type areas claims can generate from would eventually weed out the serial claimers.

So in your world you would be happy to see innocent people suffer just so that you can get at the few who buck the system.Have you seen how much damage the new system administered by ATOS is causing amongst the most disadvantaged in society?

"Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment" People close to me has been involved with families living on benefits of some sort or another for more than 30 years now, they have seen it all and believe me it is frightening to see how many there are and the mentality of these people. It really is on another planet. I am qualified to comment on this.

So somebody you know tells you this, whilst I aknowledge that benefit cheats exist 'because you say so' is heresay. Why do you feel qualified are you a social worker? do you work in the benefit system?

Of course it is! You DONT need a tv, you DONT need a mobile, get a land line, you DONT need sky tv, I could go on with absolute non essentials but wont. Your statement there alone makes me question lotssof things about you!! You cant afford it? Tough luck, you wont die without them

I remember the same argument being used about fridges and phones when I was younger. I didn't mention sky tv.

What an absolutley ridiculous question

I don't think so, if you were unfortunate enoughto be mane redundant, or lose you job through illness, would you be prepared to live at the standard you expect these people to? If you were instructed to would you sell your telly, mobile, car in order to get benefits? If people are on the social do you expect them to sit there with no tv ('cos they'll have to pay a licence fee) bare floors, no heating?('cos they can always chop logs eh?)
I think we both agree that benefits cheats are a problem, but I don't think that your methods are either fair, or will solve the problem.

sai-diva wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:

If your on benefits you should not have children it really is that simple. If like you say it happens AFTER you are pregnant etc then fare enough. You know exactly the 'type' of claimant I refer to but choose not to for the sake of an argument. Your point is completely valid and I actually agree with you, please, please, please realise I am talking about the families that make benefits their sole income for generations. There are lots of them, they exist and you know they do.I completely agree with benefits when administered for the right reasons. I have no desire whatsoever to pay for someone to have loads of children, far more than for example I could afford to have, simply because they can knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer and actually MAKE money the more children they have. Do you have first hand experience of these people and just how far reaching they are? I have so I feel I am qualified to comment.
Cant afford them? Too bad. I now await your response

Thanks for the lack of insults in your response. can I ask you a few questions before answering?
How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?
According to the dwp £1.2 billion is claimed illegally, do you have any idea how much money is avoided by tax avoidance schemes?
Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?
How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here,
Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment?
Ta.
Now in response to what you say,
Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same? I accept that there are benefit cheats, in all areas of society there will be people who buck the system(look at the bankers),and there are safeguards in place to prevent this already, but there is a danger of returning much hated 'means tested' benefit system,if you were unemployed or sick would you want an inspector coming round insisting that you sell you possessions?
What this policy, and many introduced by this and the previous govt. is doing is making people like yourself take their eye off of the ball.
Country in trouble? Blame those feckless workshy cheats, No money in the pot, must be down to those single mothers(remember that one). The money claimed by 'benefit cheats' pales into insignificance alongside the money used to bail out the banks. You are getting cross with the wrong people.
One other point, in one of your posts, you say that there has never been full employment, you're right, there needs to be a pool of labour for this system to work, at the moment there just aren't enough jobs to go round, graduates with huge debts are fighting for jobs cleaning toilets.
Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?

"How would you impose a cap on the amount of children claimants can have?"

You can never put a cap on the amount of children someone can have as some humans will procreate in abundance with no reponsibility taken or thought of, these are the feckless I speak about. Due to this, a cap on the amount of children someone will recieve benefits for could be implemented. You have more than 2, then you look after them out of your own pocket.


"Do you think it fair that a man who earns £1.2 billion, resides in this country, pays no tax here?"

No but I dont blame them as I think the rich are ripped of in this country (I am not a high earner by the way, far from it). I think you will find they DO pay tax but not necessarily on the whole earnings but it will undoubtedly be FAR more even then than any of us will pay in tax.

"How would you prevent truthful claimants getting caught up in the 'witch hunt' that seems to tar all of the unemployed with the same brush as seems to be happening here"

You never will but a huge reduction in benefits in key areas like the amount of children a family can claim bennefit for as I said above and other loop hole type areas claims can generate from would eventually weed out the serial claimers.

"Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment"

People close to me has been involved with families living on benefits of some sort or another for more than 30 years now, they have seen it all and believe me it is frightening to see how many there are and the mentality of these people. It really is on another planet. I am qualified to comment on this.

"Poverty is all relative, so in a society where everyone has a tv, fridge,cooker, phone is it fair to expect those on benefits not to have the same?"

Of course it is! You DONT need a tv, you DONT need a mobile, get a land line, you DONT need sky tv, I could go on with absolute non essentials but wont. Your statement there alone makes me question lotssof things about you!! You cant afford it? Tough luck, you wont die without them.

Yes I agree that the government use this as a distraction but my point is that benefits is used for all the wrong reasons and i also agree with you about the amount of jobs verse amount of people. The problem is everyone EXPECTS to have all the bling just like you showed you think they should whether they work or not and that is the problem, they want it all and the system allows it.

"Would you be prepared to live on what you could claim on benefits?"

What an absolutley ridiculous question! Of course not! As I have worked all my life, own my own house, decided on no more than 2 children, respect myself and care about where I live I would get absolutely squat all in benefits! I didnt decide to use it as a lifestyle from the start so I (and I expect you) are not 'in the system' and so are screwed if we ever need help!!

I am not against benefits, I just am horrified at the abuse of it. I am sure you know EXACTLY what I mean!!

You can never put a cap on the amount of children someone can have as some humans will procreate in abundance with no reponsibility taken or thought of, these are the feckless I speak about. Due to this, a cap on the amount of children someone will recieve benefits for could be implemented. You have more than 2, then you look after them out of your own pocket.

So what happens when a couple who have 2 children, who are on benefits and the wife falls pregnant? If the world was as you wish it to be,ie those on benefits live in poverty, then surely, even with the best will in the world, there will not be enough for the children to eat. Malnourishment will follow with all. So ddo we take the children away, with all the costs inherent in that? Do we force the unemployed to take contrception? What about their religious views.
I agree that there is a problem with some of those on benefits, but I think that it is blown out all proportion.
I resent any one who 'breeds' irresponsibly, If I have 2 children and use the rescources provided by my taxes to eduate and keep them healthy, why should I subsidise someone who has 5,6,or 7 children?Bearing in mind that the world has a finite amount of resources are they not being a bit irresponsible?

No but I dont blame them as I think the rich are ripped of in this country (I am not a high earner by the way, far from it). I think you will find they DO pay tax but not necessarily on the whole earnings but it will undoubtedly be FAR more even then than any of us will pay in tax

The rich aren't ripped off in this country, the rich run this country, so they make sure they aren't ripped off.
Amazon pay NO corporation tax in this country, and yet are responsible(in part) for the demise of many small buisinesses,by moving their operations to tax havens they don't pay vat either. Think how rich we would be if they paid their tax liabilities. In America, if you live in America, that's where you pay your tax.

You never will but a huge reduction in benefits in key areas like the amount of children a family can claim bennefit for as I said above and other loop hole type areas claims can generate from would eventually weed out the serial claimers.

So in your world you would be happy to see innocent people suffer just so that you can get at the few who buck the system.Have you seen how much damage the new system administered by ATOS is causing amongst the most disadvantaged in society?

"Can you tell me of your experience of 'that type' of benefit claiment" People close to me has been involved with families living on benefits of some sort or another for more than 30 years now, they have seen it all and believe me it is frightening to see how many there are and the mentality of these people. It really is on another planet. I am qualified to comment on this.

So somebody you know tells you this, whilst I aknowledge that benefit cheats exist 'because you say so' is heresay. Why do you feel qualified are you a social worker? do you work in the benefit system?

Of course it is! You DONT need a tv, you DONT need a mobile, get a land line, you DONT need sky tv, I could go on with absolute non essentials but wont. Your statement there alone makes me question lotssof things about you!! You cant afford it? Tough luck, you wont die without them

I remember the same argument being used about fridges and phones when I was younger. I didn't mention sky tv.

What an absolutley ridiculous question

I don't think so, if you were unfortunate enoughto be mane redundant, or lose you job through illness, would you be prepared to live at the standard you expect these people to? If you were instructed to would you sell your telly, mobile, car in order to get benefits? If people are on the social do you expect them to sit there with no tv ('cos they'll have to pay a licence fee) bare floors, no heating?('cos they can always chop logs eh?)
I think we both agree that benefits cheats are a problem, but I don't think that your methods are either fair, or will solve the problem.

"but I don't think that your methods are either fair, or will solve the problem."

Life isnt fair and the problems are not solved now but it would put a lot more money back into the country. You can put obsticles in the way all the time and never reach an agreement.

I know you really dont want to believe it but it is not "heresay" it is fact. Sorry to break the news to you but you obviously are NOT as informed as me and are speculating. No disrespect but I dont think you have any experience of this at all from your posts.

Or you're not as informed as me, something we will probably never find out.

sai-diva wrote:
Or you're not as informed as me, something we will probably never find out.

No, I would put money on it you havent a clue what your talking about. Lots of hot air no substance.

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:
Or you're not as informed as me, something we will probably never find out.

No, I would put money on it you havent a clue what your talking about. Lots of hot air no substance.

tigeran says...
1:57pm Wed 19 Sep 12

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits …

I’d love to know - have you made up your mind about sterilising the poor yet?

GorillaGirl109 wrote:

tigeran wrote:

sai-diva wrote:
Or you're not as informed as me, something we will probably never find out.

No, I would put money on it you havent a clue what your talking about. Lots of hot air no substance.

tigeran says...
1:57pm Wed 19 Sep 12

Well, not sure about steralization but I strongly believe a cap on the amount of children a person is allowed to have if they survive on benefits …

I’d love to know - have you made up your mind about sterilising the poor yet?

Not yet but will let you know.