HS2 environmental study "too late" say campaigners (From Bucks Free Press)

Bit late now to do survey/study...!
But of course it's what you come to expect when the plan was a foregone conclusion and "consultatiobn period" was a hollow sham and promise.

Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

It is depressing that people such as Piran remain so ill informed.

As ever, the pro-lobby resort to name calling to defend a project that is not in the national interest.

HS2's mythical wider economic benefits have been discredited by many bodies -TPA, Adam Smith Institute, FT and The Economist etc.

If it is built the last laugh will be on Birmingham and Manchester as the far larger London economy sucks in the best and brightest.

And of course, the small detail of irretrievably damaging an ANOB is clearly in the national interest!

piran wrote:
Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

Do you not think that an environmental study is a very important part on deciding if a project should go through or not? This is just another example of a Government pushing through a vanity project at any cost. It makes me laugh that people say that Britain needs this and wants this, why then out of the millions did only 55,000 people complete the consultation on HS2 and the majority that did were against it. In fact if you read the report from the consultation, only 429 businesses in the whole of Britain responded to the consultation. And please stop calling people in Bucks NIMBYS, people in this part of the country actually take pride in where they live and do not want a railway line through their houses or through an ANOB.

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:
Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

Do you not think that an environmental study is a very important part on deciding if a project should go through or not? This is just another example of a Government pushing through a vanity project at any cost. It makes me laugh that people say that Britain needs this and wants this, why then out of the millions did only 55,000 people complete the consultation on HS2 and the majority that did were against it. In fact if you read the report from the consultation, only 429 businesses in the whole of Britain responded to the consultation. And please stop calling people in Bucks NIMBYS, people in this part of the country actually take pride in where they live and do not want a railway line through their houses or through an ANOB.

Nick, sorry but most of the anti HS2 lobby are selfish NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire. Nice houses & good incomes who basically do not want any changes to their comfortable lives. The same anti arguments were made when they built the canals, started tramac roads to replace farm tracks, when the Victorians built the railways and when the M40 was built through Buckinghamshire. We have to move with the times. If you look at the HS2 & government transport sites enviromental studies have been done. This is another extended study not the first! Transport capacity is needed for our future economy or do you want more motorways built through Buckinghamshire in the next 25 years??

It really is about time the anti-HS2 brigade woke up to the fact there is nothing in an Environmental Assessment that cannot be mitigated by a series of tried and tested procedures; listed buildings, trees, and animals can be all be re-located (moved) away from the the proposed route.
.
But what the anti-HS2 brigade are trying to do, is suggest that HS2 must not be built through the Chilterns. In my opinion this is nothing more than small round things!

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote: Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

Do you not think that an environmental study is a very important part on deciding if a project should go through or not? This is just another example of a Government pushing through a vanity project at any cost. It makes me laugh that people say that Britain needs this and wants this, why then out of the millions did only 55,000 people complete the consultation on HS2 and the majority that did were against it. In fact if you read the report from the consultation, only 429 businesses in the whole of Britain responded to the consultation. And please stop calling people in Bucks NIMBYS, people in this part of the country actually take pride in where they live and do not want a railway line through their houses or through an ANOB.

Nick, sorry but most of the anti HS2 lobby are selfish NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire. Nice houses & good incomes who basically do not want any changes to their comfortable lives. The same anti arguments were made when they built the canals, started tramac roads to replace farm tracks, when the Victorians built the railways and when the M40 was built through Buckinghamshire. We have to move with the times. If you look at the HS2 & government transport sites enviromental studies have been done. This is another extended study not the first! Transport capacity is needed for our future economy or do you want more motorways built through Buckinghamshire in the next 25 years??

You mention the victorians building the railway to begin with, maybe you should focus on the short sightedness of people who decided to rip vast quantities of the network and then build on it. Also I'd like to point out that the british railway messed up high speed trains for this country by using different ans sub-standard parts for the tilting trains. if that hadn't of happened we wouldn't be where we are today.
i'd also like to point out that travelling by road with an internal combustion engine saw the decline of rail travel by the public and frieght as the roads weren't as congested today.
We've gone full circle from rail to road back to rail and in the interim the time has passed us by.

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:
Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

Do you not think that an environmental study is a very important part on deciding if a project should go through or not? This is just another example of a Government pushing through a vanity project at any cost. It makes me laugh that people say that Britain needs this and wants this, why then out of the millions did only 55,000 people complete the consultation on HS2 and the majority that did were against it. In fact if you read the report from the consultation, only 429 businesses in the whole of Britain responded to the consultation. And please stop calling people in Bucks NIMBYS, people in this part of the country actually take pride in where they live and do not want a railway line through their houses or through an ANOB.

Nick, sorry but most of the anti HS2 lobby are selfish NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire. Nice houses & good incomes who basically do not want any changes to their comfortable lives. The same anti arguments were made when they built the canals, started tramac roads to replace farm tracks, when the Victorians built the railways and when the M40 was built through Buckinghamshire. We have to move with the times. If you look at the HS2 & government transport sites enviromental studies have been done. This is another extended study not the first! Transport capacity is needed for our future economy or do you want more motorways built through Buckinghamshire in the next 25 years??

Were you alive when the Victorians built the railways then? Very impressive, must be some kind of a record.

There is still hope that this White Elephant will not be built. One issue will be the cost which has been loosly estimated at £17 billion before the route was even decided.

One can hope that the dreadful Human Rights act will actually do some good and people who are to be uprouted from their homes can have the European Courts helping them to stop this waste of money.

I

"Rail engineering expert Hilary Wharf, from Great Missenden" - what!!!!! - this is a gross distortion of the facts - so nothing new there from the anti-HS2 brigade - Hilary Wharf is NOT an Rail Engineering Expert anymore than I am! - she is qualified in Economics and has acted as a business advisor for a variety of companies, some of whom may be in the transport sector - a more accurate description might be "Hilary Wharf, resident of Great Missenden (right next to the proposed line) and self appointed Rail Engineering Expert"

Doesn't mean Hilary isn't a Rail Engineering Expert!

I think Padav you need to just look at what the HS2 is. A fast train from London to Birmingham. That's it. It's not going to solve unemployment up north, not going to give untold riches. It's not actually going to be much use to anyone other than people who want to travel non-stop from London to Birmingham and vice versa. Those people already have the choice of a good rail system, good road connections and airport connection.

So, to spend £17 billion plus to save 20 minutes on a journey only a few people make is not a good use of public funds.

I would spend it on local commuter travel, something that IS needed.

@Malc London - I'm sorry, her expertise in Economics but the article reports her status as a Rail Engineering Expert - what is it about the words Economics and Rail Engineering that you don't understand - this article falsely implies that Hilary Wharf is bringing expert opinion to bear on this contentious topic - in fact she is doing no such thing - she is acting primarily out of narrow self interest - the new line will pass within close proximity of her place of residence! Yes, I have looked very carefully at this project and I can readily perceive the massive benefits implementation of this scheme will bring to UK plc! The fact that you use the descriptive term "Fast train from London to Birmingham" betrays your woeful ignorance and biased perspective - I live in Alderley Edge and guess what, from day one of HS2 operation I'll be able (along with millions more in NW.England) to board a direct service from my Region to the near European mainland, using the classic compatible trainsets designed specifically for that purpose - how does that chime with your blinkered portrayal - answer: it doesn't!!!

Err, why wasn't this undertaken PRIOR to the consultation or even the decision??????????

wayneo wrote:
Err, why wasn't this undertaken PRIOR to the consultation or even the decision??????????

Hello wayeo, just woken up?
.
See my 12.23pm post.

The canals and M40 were very different to HS2. Local people would be able to benefit from a new motorway or use the canals, HS2 offers no benefit to those people who houses will be blighted or destroyed. The phrase NIMBY is thrown about these days far too easily to put down people’s objections to projects. It is easy to say that someone is a NIMBY when it won’t affect your own home or local area. HS2 will blight the Chiltern’s, destroy people’s homes and people here will have no chance of getting on the darn thing! But the most important thing is that everybody in Britain will be affected as it is us as taxpayers who will fund this and the business case to justify this costly venture just isn’t there. It is obscene to spend £32 billion on this project when the government is making huge cutbacks. Justine Greening tells us that when built HS2 will be able to carry 9000 people an hour from London to Birmingham – do we really need this amount of capacity and what will be the likely cost of a ticket be, still not been given an answer for this yet. Improving the existing rail lines at a fraction of the cost is the be Also I seem to notice that anybody for HS2 cannot seem to give me a likely answer as to why people for HS2 did not complete the consultation, if everybody was going to use it or benefit for it then why did they not answer a couple of questions positively to make sure the project would get the go ahead? Windsorian, answer me this, how exactly do you propose to ‘move’ listed buildings to another location as you say in your post?

The canals and M40 were very different to HS2. Local people would be able to benefit from a new motorway or use the canals, HS2 offers no benefit to those people who houses will be blighted or destroyed. The phrase NIMBY is thrown about these days far too easily to put down people’s objections to projects. It is easy to say that someone is a NIMBY when it won’t affect your own home or local area. HS2 will blight the Chiltern’s, destroy people’s homes and people here will have no chance of getting on the darn thing! But the most important thing is that everybody in Britain will be affected as it is us as taxpayers who will fund this and the business case to justify this costly venture just isn’t there. It is obscene to spend £32 billion on this project when the government is making huge cutbacks. Justine Greening tells us that when built HS2 will be able to carry 9000 people an hour from London to Birmingham – do we really need this amount of capacity and what will be the likely cost of a ticket be, still not been given an answer for this yet. Improving the existing rail lines at a fraction of the cost is the be Also I seem to notice that anybody for HS2 cannot seem to give me a likely answer as to why people for HS2 did not complete the consultation, if everybody was going to use it or benefit for it then why did they not answer a couple of questions positively to make sure the project would get the go ahead? Windsorian, answer me this, how exactly do you propose to ‘move’ listed buildings to another location as you say in your post?

The canals and M40 were very different to HS2. Local people would be able to benefit from a new motorway or use the canals, HS2 offers no benefit to those people who houses will be blighted or destroyed. The phrase NIMBY is thrown about these days far too easily to put down people’s objections to projects. It is easy to say that someone is a NIMBY when it won’t affect your own home or local area. HS2 will blight the Chiltern’s, destroy people’s homes and people here will have no chance of getting on the darn thing! But the most important thing is that everybody in Britain will be affected as it is us as taxpayers who will fund this and the business case to justify this costly venture just isn’t there. It is obscene to spend £32 billion on this project when the government is making huge cutbacks. Justine Greening tells us that when built HS2 will be able to carry 9000 people an hour from London to Birmingham – do we really need this amount of capacity and what will be the likely cost of a ticket be, still not been given an answer for this yet. Improving the existing rail lines at a fraction of the cost is the be Also I seem to notice that anybody for HS2 cannot seem to give me a likely answer as to why people for HS2 did not complete the consultation, if everybody was going to use it or benefit for it then why did they not answer a couple of questions positively to make sure the project would get the go ahead? Windsorian, answer me this, how exactly do you propose to ‘move’ listed buildings to another location as you say in your post?

The canals and M40 were very different to HS2. Local people would be able to benefit from a new motorway or use the canals, HS2 offers no benefit to those people who houses will be blighted or destroyed. The phrase NIMBY is thrown about these days far too easily to put down people’s objections to projects. It is easy to say that someone is a NIMBY when it won’t affect your own home or local area. HS2 will blight the Chiltern’s, destroy people’s homes and people here will have no chance of getting on the darn thing! But the most important thing is that everybody in Britain will be affected as it is us as taxpayers who will fund this and the business case to justify this costly venture just isn’t there. It is obscene to spend £32 billion on this project when the government is making huge cutbacks. Justine Greening tells us that when built HS2 will be able to carry 9000 people an hour from London to Birmingham – do we really need this amount of capacity and what will be the likely cost of a ticket, still not been given an answer for this yet. Improving the existing rail network at the fraction of the cost, is still the most cost effective to overcrowding and would be delivered a lot faster than HS2. Also I seem to notice that anybody for HS2 cannot seem to give me a likely answer as to why people for HS2 did not complete the consultation, if everybody was going to use it or benefit from it then why did they not answer a couple of questions positively to make sure the project would get the go ahead? Windsorian, answer me this, how exactly do you propose to ‘move’ listed buildings to another location as you say in your post?

@Nick1042
You seem to be getting agitated as you have made the same post no less than 4 times; I would just say calm down!
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It seems to me that your main objection is the cost of HS2 but then throw in the fact it will not stop in Bucks; that is hardly surprising as BCC opposed the most sensible stop of a Heathrow hub on the GWR between Iver and West Drayton.
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Perhaps you can explain how HS2 will blight the Chilterns when the government is proposing to put most of the route under the ANOB in tunnels?.
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As for moving buildings, timber frames can be taken down and re-built elsewhere; same with stone; or buildings can be jacked up and slid like the Belle Toute lighthouse at Beachy Head.

Windsorian wrote:

wayneo wrote: Err, why wasn't this undertaken PRIOR to the consultation or even the decision??????????

Hello wayeo, just woken up? . See my 12.23pm post.

I don't read your posts, I have no interest at all in what you have written which is probably why this is news to me.

Trip wrote:

piran wrote:

Nick1042 wrote:

piran wrote:
Predicably the reactions to this story from the Anti HS2 minority will be more complaining and whinging. They need to accept that HS2 will be built, it is for the future and the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs need to be less selfish and think about the national interest for once!

Do you not think that an environmental study is a very important part on deciding if a project should go through or not? This is just another example of a Government pushing through a vanity project at any cost. It makes me laugh that people say that Britain needs this and wants this, why then out of the millions did only 55,000 people complete the consultation on HS2 and the majority that did were against it. In fact if you read the report from the consultation, only 429 businesses in the whole of Britain responded to the consultation. And please stop calling people in Bucks NIMBYS, people in this part of the country actually take pride in where they live and do not want a railway line through their houses or through an ANOB.

Nick, sorry but most of the anti HS2 lobby are selfish NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire. Nice houses & good incomes who basically do not want any changes to their comfortable lives. The same anti arguments were made when they built the canals, started tramac roads to replace farm tracks, when the Victorians built the railways and when the M40 was built through Buckinghamshire. We have to move with the times. If you look at the HS2 & government transport sites enviromental studies have been done. This is another extended study not the first! Transport capacity is needed for our future economy or do you want more motorways built through Buckinghamshire in the next 25 years??

Were you alive when the Victorians built the railways then? Very impressive, must be some kind of a record.

No I wasn't alive then but unlike you, I can read history. (But I do personally remember the Bucks whingers who tried to stop the M40). You might want to try reading some history (not the anti HS2 selective propoganda) and then maybe you will appreciate how important national infrastructure is and how historically "conservatives" have always followed the selfish way of denying progress and like to keep things comfortable for themselves. (oh sounds like the Buckinghamshire NIMBYs). Hard luck anyone else who has vision & wants an expanding economy with full employment.

wayneo wrote:

Windsorian wrote:

wayneo wrote: Err, why wasn't this undertaken PRIOR to the consultation or even the decision??????????

Hello wayeo, just woken up? . See my 12.23pm post.

I don't read your posts, I have no interest at all in what you have written which is probably why this is news to me.

You asked a question with no less than 10 question marks; then when someone bothers to reply you abuse them! In my opinion about typical for someone who has no interest in anyone elses opinion.

£32bn doesn't include:
1. the TRAINS, £8Bn
2. Interest on increased national debt £1Bn pa
3. Required linking infrastucrure £???Bn
4. Ongoing subsidy to service forever! £???Bn pa

Total REAL cost probably nearer £100Bn or 10% of national debt!

Opportunity cost:
1. All those worthwhile NEEDED projects that will be delayed or never happen
2. All the time waisted by millions of rail travellers all over the country that this politicians vanity project can never help
3. Tens of thousands of potential jobs LOST as this will create 1/5 of the jobs normally expected from 'public investment' ie expenditure of our money.

If you gave a group of businessmen or even politicians £32/100? Bn and made then truly responsible and accountable for regenerating the north or delivering transport people want would it be spent this way? Not a chance!

A truly appalling vanity project!

@Padav , HS2 will not be stopping in Aderley Edge, it might go through it or underneath it, but the train will stop in Manchester. Nor will it stop in London, the station chosen is Old Oak Common in Acton.

At present you can go to Maccelsfield and catch a train to Euston, London.

HS2 might save you 40 mins or so on the journey, but take off the time to get to Manchester, and the time to get to London from Acton, and the £35 billion pounds isn't going to get you here much quicker.

People in the villages around Maqnchester and Leeds will be facing the same "nibmy" attitude as us in Bucks, when you discover a 200 mph rail is going yards from your house.

A word of advice @Malc London - it pays to check your facts before posting, particularly when it comes to making claims related to specifically local circumstances - much of your current and future information is completely and utterly wrong! For your information, from day 1 of HS2, phase 1 opening, a daily direct service calling at Wilmslow Station (approx 2.5km from where I live) will operate allowing people from surrounding areas to board a train to either Paris or Brussels, something we can't do now (despite being promised direct services X years ago - another story I'd be happy to enlighten you about) - what's more these services will call at Lille Europe facilitating direct platform to platform transfer on to a growing number of High Speed Rail services to destinations across Europe - so much for your knowledge of this matter! When phase 2 opens, a station is planned for Manchester South - it doesn't take a genius to work out that this station will be located at Manchester Airport, approx 6km from where I live. This will further improve the transit times and quality of service (full spec European gauge rolling stock) with platform to platform times between Manchester Airport and Lille Europe approx 2.5 hours - not sure about you but that's what I call connectivity!!! Then you make the bizarre claim that I have to travel to Macclesfield to board a London train - that's funny because the Virgin Pendolinos I've been travelling on from Wilmlsow to Euston these last few years must have been a figment of my imagination - in fact I'll repeat the exercise on Saturday 25th Feb on the 07.11 - care to join me and ride on the fantasy express? Finally the route for phase 2 is not yet in the public domain but it is possible to make an educated guess - I believe the route will approach Manchester Airport from a roughly SSW direction descending into deep cutting before finally passing diagonally under the runways via to a tunnel with the subterranean platforms of the Manchester South Station at right angles to the existing Airport classic line station. From there the tunnel will continue directly under Wythenshawe before emerging closer to City Centre Manchester - the Manchester terminus will be at Manchester Mayfield - no doubt there will be a small number of people affected by this route but it will be interesting to see how the community reacts to the HS2 - I don't believe we will see anything like the levels of hysteria demonstrated in the Chilterns!

All very well padav but some of what you write in inaccurate. Check facts before writing

All very well padav but some of what you write is inaccurate. Check facts before writing

Windsorian wrote:

wayneo wrote:

Windsorian wrote:

wayneo wrote: Err, why wasn't this undertaken PRIOR to the consultation or even the decision??????????

Hello wayeo, just woken up? . See my 12.23pm post.

I don't read your posts, I have no interest at all in what you have written which is probably why this is news to me.

You asked a question with no less than 10 question marks; then when someone bothers to reply you abuse them! In my opinion about typical for someone who has no interest in anyone elses opinion.

I have plenty of interest in other's opinion, just not your opinion.

@Scarletto - yes it is all very well - it might help matters if you justify your claim with some context - which of the facts stated in my post are inaccurate? (do not refer to the deductions made about the future pathway for HS2, phase 2 - I qualified that statement), the rest of my post is based on facts, already available in the public domain

fleecedtaxpayer wrote:
£32bn doesn't include: 1. the TRAINS, £8Bn 2. Interest on increased national debt £1Bn pa 3. Required linking infrastucrure £???Bn 4. Ongoing subsidy to service forever! £???Bn pa Total REAL cost probably nearer £100Bn or 10% of national debt! Opportunity cost: 1. All those worthwhile NEEDED projects that will be delayed or never happen 2. All the time waisted by millions of rail travellers all over the country that this politicians vanity project can never help 3. Tens of thousands of potential jobs LOST as this will create 1/5 of the jobs normally expected from 'public investment' ie expenditure of our money. If you gave a group of businessmen or even politicians £32/100? Bn and made then truly responsible and accountable for regenerating the north or delivering transport people want would it be spent this way? Not a chance! A truly appalling vanity project!

Agreed and no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure, lines, road building etc; will current expenditure be ringfenced or will we see a gradual siphoning off to HS2 upon realisation that the costs have been underestimated?

@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element [HS1 being the first) in a comprehensive UK-wide High Speed network) whilst also concurrently upgrading the existing rail network. The transport budget is the transport budget, the Healthcare budget is the Healthcare budget and so on - High Speed Rail is a policy boasting consensus across the mainstream political spectrum so please, no more of this wild nonsense about ignoring the democratic wishes of a relatively tiny minority residing in close proximity to the route of HS2, phase 1 - sometimes hard decisions need to be made to invest for the future of UK plc (and the millions who depend on its continued health) - HS2 and hopefully HS3, 4 & 5 thereafter fall into this category - if we want a sustainable mass passenger transport infrastructure, fit for the 21st century, we need to stop prevaricating and start building!

Padav, phase 1 is only to Birmingham. you are phase 2, the route of which hasn't yet been decided yet. But like phase 1, there will not be any stops en route. They may demolish your town, but you will not get the benefit unless you get yourself to Manchester.

P.s. I am pleased to see there is a reliable railway in existence that will already get you to London and on to Europe. You may have just saved the Government £50 Billion quid.

padav wrote:
@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element

Well said. But the Anti HS2 lobby will dismiss all this. They lack vision and are totally selfish. They don't want to help build this country for the future , they just want it to become a heritage park. As long as they can live their comfortable lives in a Buckinghamshire bubble they could n't careless about anyone else. And they dress it up as being green!! Total hypocritical.

Malc London wrote:
P.s. I am pleased to see there is a reliable railway in existence that will already get you to London and on to Europe. You may have just saved the Government £50 Billion quid.

Yes at the moment but you just don't get it do you? This is infrastructure for the future when we will need it as a nation. 2026 onwards......

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element

Well said. But the Anti HS2 lobby will dismiss all this. They lack vision and are totally selfish. They don't want to help build this country for the future , they just want it to become a heritage park. As long as they can live their comfortable lives in a Buckinghamshire bubble they could n't careless about anyone else. And they dress it up as being green!! Total hypocritical.

Yes but Piran wouldn't that be the same for anyone whose homes and countryside were under threat?
I am sure the people of Kent were just the same. Were they accused of being selfish NIMBYS as well?
Surely, wherever you are in the country, if you feel your way of life is going to be threatened, you are going to object?
And sometimes it is good to object because otherwise our green and pleasant land would just be one big mass of concrete.

piran wrote:

Malc London wrote:
P.s. I am pleased to see there is a reliable railway in existence that will already get you to London and on to Europe. You may have just saved the Government £50 Billion quid.

Yes at the moment but you just don't get it do you? This is infrastructure for the future when we will need it as a nation. 2026 onwards......

But the infrastructure is already there. In fact it's better than HS2 because there are stops on route and it's quicker than HS2 because you don't have to get to a main city you use it. It's also cheaper than HS2 because it's already built and it's better for the environment for the same reason.

So the existing service is

* Better service
* Quicker
* Cheaper
* Better for environment

Malc London wrote:

piran wrote:

Malc London wrote:
P.s. I am pleased to see there is a reliable railway in existence that will already get you to London and on to Europe. You may have just saved the Government £50 Billion quid.

Yes at the moment but you just don't get it do you? This is infrastructure for the future when we will need it as a nation. 2026 onwards......

But the infrastructure is already there. In fact it's better than HS2 because there are stops on route and it's quicker than HS2 because you don't have to get to a main city you use it. It's also cheaper than HS2 because it's already built and it's better for the environment for the same reason.

So the existing service is

* Better service
* Quicker
* Cheaper
* Better for environment

Suggest you read up about future capacity. HS2 is for the FUTURE not now!!

Future capacity is guesswork. Already more people are working from home, more video meetings taking place. Will people travel to Europe by train or will they take the plane? (I see our Prime Minister took a plane to visit the south west recently).

Will people want to travel London to Birmingham non-stop or will they wish to visit Warwick?

In the 1960's it was decided that people would not use trains and so stations and lines were closed.

The assumptions made on future capacity are not fact. Trains have to compete with the speed of the plane and the convenience and cost saving of the car.

For people wishing to travel from London to Birmingham, HS2 is great. For anyone living in between, there are better alternatives.

Look a government has to plan for the future and this based on the best data available. Have some vision for the future! You just don't understand that HS2 is all part of a future intergrated network with HS1, HS2 and HS3 linking the UK. It is not faster trains to Birmingham!! And how amazing to say "assumptions made on future capacity are not fact". Of course they aren't unless you have a time machine!! This is planning for 2025 - 2050. It is not just about now. Does any anti-HS2 person understand - FUTURE? CAPACITY? ECONOMIC GROWTH? INFRASTRUCTURE? PLANNING?

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element

Well said. But the Anti HS2 lobby will dismiss all this. They lack vision and are totally selfish. They don't want to help build this country for the future , they just want it to become a heritage park. As long as they can live their comfortable lives in a Buckinghamshire bubble they could n't careless about anyone else. And they dress it up as being green!! Total hypocritical.

Yes but Piran wouldn't that be the same for anyone whose homes and countryside were under threat?
I am sure the people of Kent were just the same. Were they accused of being selfish NIMBYS as well?
Surely, wherever you are in the country, if you feel your way of life is going to be threatened, you are going to object?
And sometimes it is good to object because otherwise our green and pleasant land would just be one big mass of concrete.

You mention Kent. HS1 has been a sucess. Have a look now as you travel thruogh Kent to the south coast how well HS1 blends in with the landscape and how environmental damage was carefully mittigated. We will need more transport capacity from 2025 - 2050. Or do you prefer more motorways from the South East to Birmingham, Manchester and all points North? Or do you suggest we do nothing and end up with constant high unemployment and economic stagnation? Do nothing would suit the selfish, "we got it you cannot have it or spoil it" mentality of the vocal but small minority of NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire.

@Malc London: "Padav, phase 1 is only to Birmingham. you are phase 2, the route of which hasn't yet been decided yet. But like phase 1, there will not be any stops en route. They may demolish your town, but you will not get the benefit unless you get yourself to Manchester." - @Malc London - do you actually know anything about the HS2 project because your entire narrative seems driven by STOPHS2 website headline propaganda, rather than factual information - well spotted that phase 1 doesn't reach Manchester - everybody knows that (including me) - to be precise phase 1 of HS2 will terminate at a junction between the new line and the WCML at Handsacre, close to Lichfield, thereby facilitating from day one of its operation, High Speed Classic Compatible based services between Manchester and London and crucially, Manchester and near European mainland destinations - there is NO direct service of this kind available now - it is ONLY the emergence of those (DIRECT) services capable of driving modal shift from short haul air to high speed rail - so the existing service is: NOT Direct, Slower, less reliable, not as good (quality wise - only after phase 2 opens will full spec European gauge rolling stock operate up to Manchester) - care to offer us any more of your (so called) wisdom on this topic?

@demoness:"I am sure the people of Kent were just the same. Were they accused of being selfish NIMBYS as well? Surely, wherever you are in the country, if you feel your way of life is going to be threatened, you are going to object?" - perhaps the very small number of people directly impacted did object - that is their right, just as it is for those impacted by HS2 - the point here (which is studiously ignored by campaign groups) is that the wider benefits accruing to UK plc (and its millions of inhabitants) far outweigh the obvious negative impact upon a relatively tiny community living in close proximity to the new line. That community is of course, affluent, articulate and certainly well connected, which explains why their voices are amplified far beyond what might normally be expected. However, ultimately all of this vexatious dialogue comes down to a trade off equation between the costs to those living in close proximity against the future benefits for many - in that respect the contest is a no-brainer - the decision has been made - now, let's get on with it and build HS2, toute suite!

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element

Well said. But the Anti HS2 lobby will dismiss all this. They lack vision and are totally selfish. They don't want to help build this country for the future , they just want it to become a heritage park. As long as they can live their comfortable lives in a Buckinghamshire bubble they could n't careless about anyone else. And they dress it up as being green!! Total hypocritical.

Yes but Piran wouldn't that be the same for anyone whose homes and countryside were under threat?
I am sure the people of Kent were just the same. Were they accused of being selfish NIMBYS as well?
Surely, wherever you are in the country, if you feel your way of life is going to be threatened, you are going to object?
And sometimes it is good to object because otherwise our green and pleasant land would just be one big mass of concrete.

You mention Kent. HS1 has been a sucess. Have a look now as you travel thruogh Kent to the south coast how well HS1 blends in with the landscape and how environmental damage was carefully mittigated. We will need more transport capacity from 2025 - 2050. Or do you prefer more motorways from the South East to Birmingham, Manchester and all points North? Or do you suggest we do nothing and end up with constant high unemployment and economic stagnation? Do nothing would suit the selfish, "we got it you cannot have it or spoil it" mentality of the vocal but small minority of NIMBYs in Buckinghamshire.

Why are you deliberately misunderstanding me? I was just saying that surely the people of Kent must have objected when HS1 was first proposed? Yes it may be fine now but that I just think the people of Buckinghamshire are worried and want to protect their way of life. Just as the people of Northants and Oxfordshire whose life will be affected.
Surely it is a human response to protect what you love?
I am sure that in the end it will go through but to condemn and insult those whose lives are going to be turned upside down is a little unfair IMO.

My apologies I did not mean to deliberately misunderstand you. I am concerned that a tiny & vocal, well-off, often well-connected minority in Buckinghamshire are trying to stop an important national project for the future. But I also notice that they predictably cry out when there are any changes proposed. Just read the comments on here when anything new is proposed, be it expanding the film studio at Iver or car parking in Marlow. They seem very protective for themselves and want to exclude all others - that's why I think they are selfish.
If they are in the path of HS2 they will be well compensated. And yes like you, I am sure the project will go through. I do not mean to condem or insult them but put a different view. In the future I want a thriving economy with full employment for my children and grandchildren. I do not want Buckinghamshire just for those that live in it at the moment, or ending up like a huge heritage park, frozen in time.

piran wrote:
My apologies I did not mean to deliberately misunderstand you. I am concerned that a tiny & vocal, well-off, often well-connected minority in Buckinghamshire are trying to stop an important national project for the future. But I also notice that they predictably cry out when there are any changes proposed. Just read the comments on here when anything new is proposed, be it expanding the film studio at Iver or car parking in Marlow. They seem very protective for themselves and want to exclude all others - that's why I think they are selfish.
If they are in the path of HS2 they will be well compensated. And yes like you, I am sure the project will go through. I do not mean to condem or insult them but put a different view. In the future I want a thriving economy with full employment for my children and grandchildren. I do not want Buckinghamshire just for those that live in it at the moment, or ending up like a huge heritage park, frozen in time.

What a great post - thank you :)
My main concern is the environment and the ancient trees etc- if there is minimal damage to those. it won't be so bad :)

piran wrote:
My apologies I did not mean to deliberately misunderstand you. I am concerned that a tiny & vocal, well-off, often well-connected minority in Buckinghamshire are trying to stop an important national project for the future. But I also notice that they predictably cry out when there are any changes proposed. Just read the comments on here when anything new is proposed, be it expanding the film studio at Iver or car parking in Marlow. They seem very protective for themselves and want to exclude all others - that's why I think they are selfish. If they are in the path of HS2 they will be well compensated. And yes like you, I am sure the project will go through. I do not mean to condem or insult them but put a different view. In the future I want a thriving economy with full employment for my children and grandchildren. I do not want Buckinghamshire just for those that live in it at the moment, or ending up like a huge heritage park, frozen in time.

I would just like to say that you call people in Buckinghamshire a tiny minority of people against this scheme. I would like to ask you if so many people in this country are so desperately in favour of this massive waste of money then why did they not fill in the HS2 consultation? 55,000 responses out of the millions in our country and the majority who did respond were against it. Also as for people being 'well compensated' how to you compensate for years of happy family memories? Believe it or not foreigners like our country because of the mix of countryside and small towns and villages. Concreting over it and digging into it especially in protected areas is simply unacceptable, what next build an airport in Dartmoor National Park, all in the name of progress! Also I would ask you and others on this and other websites saying that it is Buckinghamshire NIMBYS complaining and trying to stop this project. There are people and action groups setup against HS2 in: Northampton, Ruislip, Oxford,Camden, Euston, Hillingdon, Leamington Spa and quite a few towns in Warwickshire , by the way none of these places are in Buckinghamshire. Oh and by the way as well as Netherlands High speed rail just having to be bailed out by taxpayers as it is making a huge loss each year, just been announced that Poland have decided to scrub their high speed plans and even France has decided not to invest in new high speed lines.

padav wrote:
@demoness:"I am sure the people of Kent were just the same. Were they accused of being selfish NIMBYS as well? Surely, wherever you are in the country, if you feel your way of life is going to be threatened, you are going to object?" - perhaps the very small number of people directly impacted did object - that is their right, just as it is for those impacted by HS2 - the point here (which is studiously ignored by campaign groups) is that the wider benefits accruing to UK plc (and its millions of inhabitants) far outweigh the obvious negative impact upon a relatively tiny community living in close proximity to the new line. That community is of course, affluent, articulate and certainly well connected, which explains why their voices are amplified far beyond what might normally be expected. However, ultimately all of this vexatious dialogue comes down to a trade off equation between the costs to those living in close proximity against the future benefits for many - in that respect the contest is a no-brainer - the decision has been made - now, let's get on with it and build HS2, toute suite!

It seems that what the government has tried to achieve, the North - South divide has completely fallen flat on its a***. 'That community is of course, affluent, articulate and certainly well connected, which explains why their voices are amplified far beyond what might normally be expected'. It seems people in the North just believe everybody in the South are loaded and are spoiling this fantastic project for the North which will bring untold fortunes in the form of jobs and massive economic growth. Sorry to burst your bubble but believe it or not there are a lot of us in the South who arn't on a massive salary riding horses in the countryside looking down on Northerners and also until you get the businesses and government to decide to move away from London things will never change now matter how many high speed rail lines you build as they were all bring people to London.

padav wrote:
@wayneo:"no HS2 supporter as of yet, has been able to produce any data as to what will happen to the funding of existing infrastructure" What are you talking about - here are the facts (again already in the public domain) as far as they can be determined at this juncture. Firstly and for the umpteenth time, HS2 is NOT a project taking place during the current control period so no one can provide precise figures about the budgetary control involved. What we do know is that the funding stream for HS2 will be drawn from the very same strategic budget (of approx £2bn per annum) currently allocated to CrossRail - we also know that when Cross Rail is completed that strategic budget funding stream will transfer (in 2016) to HS2, along with some of the expert construction personnel it pays for - you do not find a Tunnel Boring Machine and its crew on every street corner! So, given that CrossRail is currently funded whilst a record Classic Rail network budget (you know the network everyone in the anti-HS2 brigade bangs on about) is simultaneously made available for a plethora of improvement/upgrade programmes, we can surmise that the govt is committed to funding both HS2 (as the second element

As you rightly point out, the transport budget is the transport budget, regardless of whether a strategic budget is in place to build the **** thing, what about the budget for the operating costs involved?Overspend aside, If the capitals reciepts from passenger numbers after having built crossrail, HS2 etc Is lower than of those 'predicted' (as with many Government contracts they generally are) then where does the shortfall come from? Unless departmental budgets or subsidy is increase, then the realistic prospect is funding will be diverted from other sources.Irrespective of bulls!t promised of investing in existing infrastructure, unless you can tell me that there are guarentees that existing infrastructure, railways etc will be ringfenced, then prevaricating is exactly what we need right now.

I live in Chesham. I am a top 2% earner. My political allegiances are to the Left of labour.
So with that stated and out of the way.
Let us ignore the shouting of the NIMBY's, yes they exist, but they are the rich, privileged Tory elites who also rant on in favour of such rural "idylls" as fox hunting.
Let us return to the facts.
£32 Billion is a lot of money - could it be spent more wisely for Britain?
Yes.
How?
Invest in schemes which mean people do NOT have to actually travel. Also modify existing infrastructure where they DO have to travel. So:-
Telecommuting centres in rural areas of low employment - Call centre workers, IT & Backoffice staff & the like can work anywhere, they do not need to travel great distances from their homes and certainly not into the Metropolis'.
Grants for Teleconferencing/Tel
epresence systems. These are so good now it really is unnecessary to travel for meetings.
Both of the above, if supported by investment in Fibre-Optic network infrastructure mean more jobs in Rural areas which are in decline, reduced carbon emissions through the reduction in travel, lower costs to employers (no London Weighting for example), better working conditions for employees (less travel time and expense) and reduced congestion in the Metropolis'.
Get rid of wasteful First Class carriages. They run empty or close to at all times. Replace them with Business carriages with free Wi-Fi & power points but much higher passenger density and at a much lower premium on the fares. Business travellers will work on the train if the journey time is long enough for it to be worthwhile and the facilities are there. Actually it is likely that HS2 would LOWER productivity as people would be less likely to get a laptop out to work on for only 40 minutes.
Give grants to firms to De-Centralise and REDUCE the NEED for transport links.
We all spend too long travelling to work, or else we are unable to find work because it takes too long to get there or is too expensive. Let us invest £32 Billion in dealing with the cause and not the symptom.

@WhiteKnight1042 makes what appears a reasonable contribution to this debate but in the end this amounts to nothing more than a plea for the unattainable. How many times have I heard the claim that we should invest in superfast broadband technology rather than High Speed Rail (HSR) - it is not a credible strategy and besides superfast broadband roll out is happening anyway. We've had technology of this type for more than 10 years and whilst it does replace some travel it simply encourages other face to face meetings with the net result that demand for railborne travel in particular is now higher (and increasing year on year) than ever before during the post war era - can I ask where @WhiteKnight2012 actually works - in London by any chance? Over the last 60 years the world's economy has metamorphosed - successive UK administrations have allowed systematic decimation of traditional labour intensive manufacturing industry, largely based in the North and Midlands, whilst concurrently encouraging the rise of London and the South East as a world centre for service and financial products industry. This outcome has delivered a polarisation in the fortunes of different Regions across the UK. HS1 and its St Pancras terminus was only made possible by the taxpayer underwriting their construction - that's taxpayer as in ALL of us across the UK - now that same collective pot of money will fund the construction of HS2 (and hopefully HS3, 4 & 5 thereafter) to connect other parts of the UK (beginning with West Midlands, spreading to East Midlands, NW.England and Yorks-Humber) into the burgeoning pan-European High Speed Rail network - this is an equitable distribution of resources. The very small number of individuals impacted by the construction of HS2 will be compensated - I really can't see what all the fuss is about?

Apolgogies - of course that should read "@WhiteKnight2012"

@pavdav

Actually I telecommute to Middlesex in England & Atlanta in the U.S.A. as I have an enlightened employer. I travel to the office once or twice a week. HS2 will only serve to push more employment to the South from the North. The main thrust of my argument is not the broadband (Though business class is somewhat different to consumer class), but rather to the establishment of telcommuting centres nearer to peoples place of domicile. I fail to see how it encourages face to face meetings. Telepresence suites have only become truly viable in the last couple of years with the work Polycom/Cisco have been doing. It is absolutely imperative for the economy, the environment, people's well being and economic competitiveness that we stop travelling so much. I do not care about an overpaid banker having to put up with the noise of a train. I do care about a misappropriation of our hard earned taxes by a bunch of economic illiterates who at the same time give not a **** about the wild environment (Chilterns AoONB) which so desperately needs protecting from this and other industrialisation/ur
banisation.

WhiteKnight2012 wrote:
I live in Chesham. I am a top 2% earner. My political allegiances are to the Left of labour.
So with that stated and out of the way.
Let us ignore the shouting of the NIMBY's, yes they exist, but they are the rich, privileged Tory elites who also rant on in favour of such rural "idylls" as fox hunting.
Let us return to the facts.
£32 Billion is a lot of money - could it be spent more wisely for Britain?
Yes.
How?
Invest in schemes which mean people do NOT have to actually travel. Also modify existing infrastructure where they DO have to travel. So:-
Telecommuting centres in rural areas of low employment - Call centre workers, IT & Backoffice staff & the like can work anywhere, they do not need to travel great distances from their homes and certainly not into the Metropolis'.
Grants for Teleconferencing/Tel

epresence systems. These are so good now it really is unnecessary to travel for meetings.
Both of the above, if supported by investment in Fibre-Optic network infrastructure mean more jobs in Rural areas which are in decline, reduced carbon emissions through the reduction in travel, lower costs to employers (no London Weighting for example), better working conditions for employees (less travel time and expense) and reduced congestion in the Metropolis'.
Get rid of wasteful First Class carriages. They run empty or close to at all times. Replace them with Business carriages with free Wi-Fi & power points but much higher passenger density and at a much lower premium on the fares. Business travellers will work on the train if the journey time is long enough for it to be worthwhile and the facilities are there. Actually it is likely that HS2 would LOWER productivity as people would be less likely to get a laptop out to work on for only 40 minutes.
Give grants to firms to De-Centralise and REDUCE the NEED for transport links.
We all spend too long travelling to work, or else we are unable to find work because it takes too long to get there or is too expensive. Let us invest £32 Billion in dealing with the cause and not the symptom.

SpotON, you just have to convince the SOS for transport. We have the technology for more home-working, telepresence etc yet we are investing Billions to what amounts to a a reduction in the amount of time it takes to get between A,B & C. As you rightly point out, I expect the likes of HS2 will actually be a detriment to productivity when one considers that it would be less time on the train, but it would invariably mean more stops and changes for most people using the line. Surely Quality and capacity is what is required, not necessary speed. I can't but feel that this is a Capitalist venture where the Government is telling us what we need rather than what is actually required.

@WhiteKnight2012 - great for you but of course your situation is not typical at all is it? You fail to see how Internet use encourages travel - surely you are being deliberately obtuse? It was widely reported less than twelve months ago that the number of rail passenger journeys being undertaken was at the same level last seen in the pre-Beeching era and on a network boasting less than half the track at that time. Demand for rail travel has literally exploded over the last decade or so, defying all predictions and in the face of challenging economic circumstances - less young people than ever before are actually learning to drive - at the last count 46 million domestic short-haul air passenger journeys were made per year. What does this all add up to - irrefutable proof that we desperately need more capacity in our rail network - your idea that we can somehow create an entirely different kind of economy where people don't travel is sheer fantasy land stuff and the govt. isn't about to wait twenty years to find out that you're wrong - the strategy for HS2 is already decades late - the UK should have taken the plunge back in the 80s but small c conservatism prevailed yet again! Govt. has to take tough decisions now to plan for the future - HS2 is NOT misapropiration of our taxes - it is investment for the future in just the same way as HS1 was and the Channel Tunnel before that, both now integral elements of the UK rail network, HS2 is simply the next element in that process. Finally despite your claims of environmental Armageddon, the Chilterns landscape will adapt, just as it did for the M40, and the railways that already pass through it. Once HS2 is up and running everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about!

HS2 is every bodies problem except those who make money out of it ie contractors and consultants and HS2 employees.

Inflate the benefits, hide the true costs and opportunities lost.

What should have been a balanced assessment of what the railways need has been an exercise in trying to justify the indefensible by people with a vested interest ie their jobs or profits depend on HS2.

The £32bn doesn't include:
1. the TRAINS, £8Bn
2. Interest on increased national debt £1Bn pa
3. Required linking infrastucrure £???Bn
4. Ongoing subsidy to service forever! £???Bn pa

Total REAL cost probably nearer £100Bn or 10% of national debt!

Opportunity cost:
1. All those worthwhile NEEDED projects that will be delayed or never happen
2. All the time waisted by millions of rail travellers all over the country that this politicians vanity project can never help
3. Tens of thousands of potential jobs LOST as this will create perhaps 1/5 of the jobs normally expected from 'public investment'

A truly appalling vanity project!

fleecedtaxpayer wrote:
HS2 is every bodies problem except those who make money out of it ie contractors and consultants and HS2 employees.

Inflate the benefits, hide the true costs and opportunities lost.

What should have been a balanced assessment of what the railways need has been an exercise in trying to justify the indefensible by people with a vested interest ie their jobs or profits depend on HS2.

The £32bn doesn't include:
1. the TRAINS, £8Bn
2. Interest on increased national debt £1Bn pa
3. Required linking infrastucrure £???Bn
4. Ongoing subsidy to service forever! £???Bn pa

Total REAL cost probably nearer £100Bn or 10% of national debt!

Opportunity cost:
1. All those worthwhile NEEDED projects that will be delayed or never happen
2. All the time waisted by millions of rail travellers all over the country that this politicians vanity project can never help
3. Tens of thousands of potential jobs LOST as this will create perhaps 1/5 of the jobs normally expected from 'public investment'

A truly appalling vanity project!

So you don't like the HS2 project?

What's the problem ? - HS2 will run through 13 miles of the Chilterns Area Of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB) but less than 2 miles will be at or above surface level.

Missenden wrote:
It is depressing that people such as Piran remain so ill informed.

As ever, the pro-lobby resort to name calling to defend a project that is not in the national interest.

HS2's mythical wider economic benefits have been discredited by many bodies -TPA, Adam Smith Institute, FT and The Economist etc.

If it is built the last laugh will be on Birmingham and Manchester as the far larger London economy sucks in the best and brightest.

And of course, the small detail of irretrievably damaging an ANOB is clearly in the national interest!

It is so so so so so so so so so so sad that you argue that the environment is important (and that you actually come from Missenden) but don't even know that you live in an AONB!!!

It stands for Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty!

Perhaps you should change your name to being A NOB!

How sad!

WhiteKnight2012 wrote:
@pavdav

Actually I telecommute to Middlesex in England & Atlanta in the U.S.A. as I have an enlightened employer. I travel to the office once or twice a week. HS2 will only serve to push more employment to the South from the North. The main thrust of my argument is not the broadband (Though business class is somewhat different to consumer class), but rather to the establishment of telcommuting centres nearer to peoples place of domicile. I fail to see how it encourages face to face meetings. Telepresence suites have only become truly viable in the last couple of years with the work Polycom/Cisco have been doing. It is absolutely imperative for the economy, the environment, people's well being and economic competitiveness that we stop travelling so much. I do not care about an overpaid banker having to put up with the noise of a train. I do care about a misappropriation of our hard earned taxes by a bunch of economic illiterates who at the same time give not a **** about the wild environment (Chilterns AoONB) which so desperately needs protecting from this and other industrialisation/ur

banisation.

@WhiteKnight2012.

It is AONB not AoONB

I'm an environmentalist and I don't know of anybody that would ever call the Chilterns a wild environment by any means.

Why not get a local job - or is the money too good in the USA?

Please tell me of any developer that would be required to provide an environmental impact assessment at the very beginning of a proposal for a development?

Any normal process is that the developer submits an outline proposal - gets some form of approval to go further forwards - then undertakes an eia - then puts in their final planning application with the eia provided. That seems to be exactly what HS2 are doing.

padav wrote:
@Malc London - I'm sorry, her expertise in Economics but the article reports her status as a Rail Engineering Expert - what is it about the words Economics and Rail Engineering that you don't understand - this article falsely implies that Hilary Wharf is bringing expert opinion to bear on this contentious topic - in fact she is doing no such thing - she is acting primarily out of narrow self interest - the new line will pass within close proximity of her place of residence! Yes, I have looked very carefully at this project and I can readily perceive the massive benefits implementation of this scheme will bring to UK plc! The fact that you use the descriptive term "Fast train from London to Birmingham" betrays your woeful ignorance and biased perspective - I live in Alderley Edge and guess what, from day one of HS2 operation I'll be able (along with millions more in NW.England) to board a direct service from my Region to the near European mainland, using the classic compatible trainsets designed specifically for that purpose - how does that chime with your blinkered portrayal - answer: it doesn't!!!

As well as living right next to HS2 Hilary Wharf has made all of her huge wealth from the railways!

Yes, supporting railway enlargements and other schemes in other places on other people apart from herself.

I would guess that if the HS2 route wasn't near her she would be on that project like a vulture and earning money big style!

Funny how things turn!