High Speed 2 chiefs: Delays could jeopardise scheme (From Bucks Free Press)

Good, it a hopless and massive waste of tax payers money anyway.

Gosh! You mean unforeseen delays might make the project go over budget? Who'd have thought.

(think Holyrood, est cost £40 million, true cost £400 million).

The proposed scheme may be a questionable scope and alignment but the UK has to learn also to construct the infrastructure for the future. There is the need for good relationships to design future needs and this requires determining the remit well and working with communities and with different Departments.

It is possible DFT and HS2 could readdress the issues and reform a different scheme in different locations. Better for the nation to find ways forward also. Route 3 may not provide the answer especially if the wrong question was asked in 2009.

How about if the Government set a maximum budget for the scheme and all Minister who support it sign guarantees to pay personally if the scheme is over budget.

That way we can guarantee that the estimate is realistic and the Goverment can budget properly.

Malc London wrote:
Gosh! You mean unforeseen delays might make the project go over budget? Who'd have thought.

(think Holyrood, est cost £40 million, true cost £400 million).

Never let embarrasing facts get in the way of err 'progress' Malc :-)

It's not like we're skint or anything.

If a delay such as being considered puts the financial viability into jeopardy then it shows just how marginal the case is in the first place.

Well done James Nadal.
You never let me down on the crap story front.

Yet another meaningless story not based on any facts at all but simply aimed at raising people's hope up.

Nice one!

Come on James ...show us the facts. Exactly how did "HIGH Speed 2 bosses have expressed fears the £33bn rail scheme could be in 'jeopardy' because of delays in the Government releasing cash"?

Where is the quote from them?????

Bucks Free Gutter Press

Also can you confirm some other facts? Such as HS2 phase 1 (London to Birmingham) will cost £16.3b

Is James Nadal (BFP) part of the Anti-HS2 lobby or just wanting to stir up imagined controversy that helps sell papers/visits to the web site to sell advertising? Shame his "articles"/reporting seem so short of actual facts!! Facts used to be part of decent journalism.

Chiltonians wrote:
Also can you confirm some other facts? Such as HS2 phase 1 (London to Birmingham) will cost £16.3b

That is indeed the optimistic estimate cost as at 2q 2011 prices for The capital construction cost.

It doesn't take into account Rolling stock capital costs ( the trains) or operating costs. These costs should almost double your figure.

I don't think this takes into account interest costs.

A question to the supporters of the scheme, why aren't you pressing for double decker trains? Time to do it is before they build the tunnels.

Malc London wrote:
A question to the supporters of the scheme, why aren't you pressing for double decker trains? Time to do it is before they build the tunnels.

I think it is a question of size especially in the London part where current lines/tunnels etc will be used. But I hope a rail expert on here can answer your question

This debate is now descending into the farcical - over at La-La Land Central, A.K.A. STOPHS2 they are furiously building up a head of paranoia driven steam as they accuse every man and his dog (and anyone else they can think of who might be even vaguely involved) of indulging in endless spin, whilst they engage in the very same duplicitous activities, at a rate of ever increasing knots with each passing week - you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried! Then we have the constant drip drip of negative commentaries, each feeding in an insidious self-fulfilling mode, of each other; Article appears in Telegraph, reported on HS2 website, cross reported in various local paper websites and then back to the Telegraph - it really is laughable as the level of despearation is ratcheted up with each passing week - to some extent HS2 Ltd are to blame here because they are signally failing in their duty to stamp very firmly on all this speculation - which simply provides food for endless speculation on the part of a few, very self interested campaigners within the anti-HS2 community - the ones who have very nice houses in close proximity to the approved Route3 pathway who will do anything to undermine the plans - in short the rest of UK plc can go hang, just so long as I'm all right Jack! In response to @Malc London (who has still not acknowledged his error in propagating a false budget figure for phase 1 - why am I not surprised?) who asks about double decker trains - this question demonstrates yet another aspect of ignorance about this project. HS2 will be built to European Interoperability Standards - see this URL for an explanation; http://hs2ltd.files.
wordpress.com/2011/0
5/interoperability_0
.pdf - the European Gauge "Envelope" that forms a standard part of the Interoperability facilitates the operation of double-decker trains - there is even a picture of a SNCF Duplex Trainset on the information leaflet!

I see one of HS2's hired spin doctors, is back on here yet again.

Government not only want to build this HS2 white elephant with tax payers money; they are actually funding the HS2 PR machine to mis-inform the taxpayer through social and news forum media with the taxpayer's money! These unfortunate people have to fill their quota of spin to justify their jobs; and that is what gives them away. They always claim they are, 'nothing to do with HS2' yet they spend an inordinate amount of time justifying HS2's lost cause.

The NiMBY augument hid the truth from the wider public for too long; but now the truth is out - and the whole country are beginning see HS2 for what it is.

I believe that all of us not directly affected by this hare-brained folly, really owe it to the so called 'NIMBYs' perseverance in cutting through government/HS2 'smoke and mirrors' to bring us the truth. I am sure they have many battles ahead but I wish them well. Propaganda is ineffective; truth will always out. Time for HS2 spinners to look for a more secure job.

To chiltonians - you can read the minutes that this article is referring to at http://www.hs2.org.u
k/boardmeetingminute
s2012.

to padav - In the April economic case the total construction cost is listed as £20.3bn at market prices. Trains are £2.8bn (see www.hs2.org.uk/asset
s/x/77820).

Mudwizard wrote:
I see one of HS2's hired spin doctors, is back on here yet again.

Government not only want to build this HS2 white elephant with tax payers money; they are actually funding the HS2 PR machine to mis-inform the taxpayer through social and news forum media with the taxpayer's money! These unfortunate people have to fill their quota of spin to justify their jobs; and that is what gives them away. They always claim they are, 'nothing to do with HS2' yet they spend an inordinate amount of time justifying HS2's lost cause.

The NiMBY augument hid the truth from the wider public for too long; but now the truth is out - and the whole country are beginning see HS2 for what it is.

I believe that all of us not directly affected by this hare-brained folly, really owe it to the so called 'NIMBYs' perseverance in cutting through government/HS2 'smoke and mirrors' to bring us the truth. I am sure they have many battles ahead but I wish them well. Propaganda is ineffective; truth will always out. Time for HS2 spinners to look for a more secure job.

yep, I agree with you.

Gets around a bit this Padav character, must be a full-time job keeping up with all that lot - me thinks some more digging is required:

http://www.oxfordmai
l.co.uk/news/9716729
.HS2_spin_doctor_rep
orts____wrong___/

http://www.expressan
dstar.com/news/2012/
03/06/hs2-route-will
-avoid-midlands-vill
ages-says-mp/

http://178.18.116.14
2/showthread.php?t=5
5179&page=66

http://178.18.116.14
2/showthread.php?t=6
1718

http://www.warwickco
urier.co.uk/news/bus
iness/two-judicial-r
eviews-for-hs2-proje
ct-to-deal-with-1-37
11111

http://www.lichfield
people.co.uk/people/
padav/profile.html

http://www.buckshera
ld.co.uk/news/local-
news/hs2-the-nation-
says-no-1-3357346

http://staffslive.co
.uk/2012/03/26/staff
ordshire-councillors
-meet-community-grou
ps-at-hs2-summit/

http://www.businessg
reen.com/bg/news/216
5955/protesters-look
-derail-hs2-legal-ch
allenges

@Mudwizard: "I see one of HS2's hired spin doctors, is back on here yet again." ------ go on @Mudwizard, give us a clue, so we can all learn from your divine gift of HS2Ltd sponsored spin doctor spotting? While your considering that, perhaps you'd care to address some of the factual (rather than subjective, dare I say it, spin orientated) challenges posed in this thread - it might make a difference from the usual moronic chatter of accusing anybody vaguely supportive towards HS2 of being a paid mouthpiece - don't suppose you're active in the anti-HS2 campaign by any chance and just happen to live in close proximity to the approved ROUTE3 option?

@Wayneo - yes I post comments supporting HS2 rebutting flatly false claims made by anti-HS2 campaigners - I want to see HS2 proceed to deliver massive benefits for my Region - is there something wrong with that? I don't work in Rail Industry, I have no direct or indirect benefit to gain from HS2, save being a future regular user of the trainservices it will facilitate - and if my guess is correct, phase 2 of the line will come quite close to where I live - it seems that naked cynicism aligned with unsubstantiated mud slinging is now accepted as resonable behaviour - how low will you sink in your desperate struggle?

padav wrote:
@Wayneo - yes I post comments supporting HS2 rebutting flatly false claims made by anti-HS2 campaigners - I want to see HS2 proceed to deliver massive benefits for my Region - is there something wrong with that? I don't work in Rail Industry, I have no direct or indirect benefit to gain from HS2, save being a future regular user of the trainservices it will facilitate - and if my guess is correct, phase 2 of the line will come quite close to where I live - it seems that naked cynicism aligned with unsubstantiated mud slinging is now accepted as resonable behaviour - how low will you sink in your desperate struggle?

I don't believe I've called anybody evil? I don't believe i've called people names such as 'luddites' or Nimby's.

Why Peter, if the intention of a consultation is to inform the public in order so that they may make intelligent, informed responses, are you unsure to to whether HS2 will or won't come close to where you live?

@Wayneo - you used the word "evil" not me. I also refrain from using terms such as the "L" and "N" word in a derogatory fashion. Yes, I robustly challenge the motivations driving those who peddle half-truths and misleading exaggerations about HS2 in a blatant attempt to distort public opinion - I detest that kind of behaviour and guess what; it is rampant amongst anti-HS2 campaigners. I try wherever possible to deal with facts - I rebut the feeble arguments advanced by HS2 naysayers - inevitably they get angry with me, because they lose any argument based on THE FACTS and usually resort, out of sheer desperation, to accusing me of direct financial benefit from HS2 or worse still, being a paid mouthpiece for HS2 Ltd - they simply fail to comprehend how any person can have informed themself about the facts, made a rational judgement and come down in favour of this scheme - why; because they've been consumed by the avalanche of out and out nonsense emanating from anti-HS2 campaign websites and activist groups, many of them populated by semi-retired, relatively wealthy, well connected individuals, hopping mad with a Conservative led administration (that they probably voted for in a robot like manner, without even bothering to read the manifesto) that has had the temerity to disrupt their cosy lifestyle by proposing to build a new rail line through their backyard! I live in Alderley Edge (post code SK9 7**) your question betrays a certain ignorance about HS2 - surely you know that the phase 2 route is NOT in the public domain yet - but I can read a map and I can deduce certain obvious conclusions from snippets of information already circulating - it doesn't take a genius to work out that a South Manchester through station will be located within the environs of Manchester Airport (approx 6km from my house as the crow flies) as the new line approaches Manchester from the south - I have no special privilege but I can work things out for myself - that's why I can only make an educated guess at this stage - the preferred Phase 2 route is likely to become public knowledge during this Autumn.

Nothing wrong in padav arguing for something that he thinks will benefit his region ( although his non-stop dedication to the cause is slightly suspicious ) -- just don't confuse that with the national interest, especially when it costs £ 36 bn. The game is somewhat given away on the Go HS2 website where it claims that Birmingham will benefit from jobs that are RELOCATED FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE UK. Even if this is true, it largely constitute moving round the deckchairs.

@Wayneo - you used the word "evil" not me. I also refrain from using terms such as the "L" and "N" word in a derogatory fashion. Yes, I robustly challenge the motivations driving those who peddle half-truths and misleading exaggerations about HS2 in a blatant attempt to distort public opinion - I detest that kind of behaviour and guess what; it is rampant amongst anti-HS2 campaigners

No, actually one of your colleagues in the pro-camp did; myths are peddled on both sides but bearing in mind much of the information isn't even in the public domain yet. I'm curious as to how you can claim to base your opinion on facts as a result.

I live in Alderley Edge (post code SK9 7**) your question betrays a certain ignorance about HS2 - surely you know that the phase 2 route is NOT in the public domain yet - but I can read a map and I can deduce certain obvious conclusions from snippets of information already circulating

But again, without such facts being in the public domain,You yourself rely on supposition and what you believe it to be rather than facts.

The whole premise of your argument and any subsequent 'benefits', are what you are being drip fed from official sources or leaked from hearsay etc. the end result, is a collage of 'snippets' that you've concocted only to then dress up as an authoritive source of information when it is nothing of the sort.

I would say therefore, that your assertion of "I robustly challenge the motivations driving those who peddle half-truths and misleading exaggerations about HS2 in a blatant attempt to distort public opinion", is rather disengenuous and pompous, in the absence of any firm or official information.

I'm puzzled as to why you should think the following question would illuminate any ignorance concerning HS2 when in fact your own assumption is based on 'educated' guesses, the question therefore, still stands:

If the intention of a consultation is to inform the public in order so that they may make intelligent, informed responses, why are you unsure to to whether HS2 will or won't come close to where you live?

See what I mean @wayneo - I post an honest assessment of my personal motivations in supporting HS2 - so @kingsnewclothes extracts one portion of a sentence within my remarks and attempts to blatantly distort their meaning - yes, my support for HS2 is driven by a desire for the betterment of my Region (NW.England) but @kingsnewclothes conveniently fails to explain how HS2 (phases 1&2) will benefit the W.Midlands, E.Midlands, Yorks-Humber and NW.England Regions directly - by my reckoning that's approx 21.5million people or 36% of the UK population. By the same measure HS1 directly benefited London and SE.England, 15.5million or 26% of the UK population - who funded HS1 - all of us (as in ALL UK taxpayers). So, the claim made by @kingsnewclothes is ficticious, selective and deliberately distorted to provide a misleading impression to readers - this is what drives me nuts and motivates me to post rebuttals - all I'm after is an objective debate based on facts. Now, the small matter of relocated jobs (on the Go HS2 website) - yet another grossly selective analysis from @kingsnewclothes - jobs relocating might also be seen as reflecting a robust, vibrant and dynamic economy, adpating to change and moving jobs (and creating them as well) in more advantageous locations, However, @kingsnewclothes is not interested in this explanation because it doesn't fit with his/her blinkered mindset - no, relocated jobs must mean jobs pinched from somewhere else - only that interpretation will suffice to maintain the charade of relentlessly negative HS2 commentary!

@wayneo - you've simply sidestepped the questions I've raised so I'll make this really simple for you. Care to bet (our respective reputations) right now on who is correct about phase 2. I predict, very publicly, that phase 2 of the line will contain a South Manchester Station somewhere very close to or directly within the environs of Manchester International Airport. If that prediction IS correct, you only need to draw a line south of the Airport - where do you find yourself, somewhere close (approx 2 to 3km west to be precise) of Wilmslow and Alderley Edge - why do you persist in obfuscating about the blindingly obvious - just because I cannot actually draw a line of the map right now does not mean I cannot predict with some accuracy a broad pathway through which phase 2 will pass. I'm also struggling to understand what relevance the phase 1 consultation process has on the route (of the western arm) of phase 2, virtually none other than it provides us with a clue to its starting point; somewhere close to Handsacre, near Lichfield?

padav wrote:
@wayneo - you've simply sidestepped the questions I've raised so I'll make this really simple for you. Care to bet (our respective reputations) right now on who is correct about phase 2. I predict, very publicly, that phase 2 of the line will contain a South Manchester Station somewhere very close to or directly within the environs of Manchester International Airport. If that prediction IS correct, you only need to draw a line south of the Airport - where do you find yourself, somewhere close (approx 2 to 3km west to be precise) of Wilmslow and Alderley Edge - why do you persist in obfuscating about the blindingly obvious - just because I cannot actually draw a line of the map right now does not mean I cannot predict with some accuracy a broad pathway through which phase 2 will pass. I'm also struggling to understand what relevance the phase 1 consultation process has on the route (of the western arm) of phase 2, virtually none other than it provides us with a clue to its starting point; somewhere close to Handsacre, near Lichfield?

Make it as simple as you like,I don't see that reputation has anything to do with it, i'm not the one making any claims as to what the route will be or is likely to be.

The facts simply aren't in the public domain and your opinions are based on supposition.

As for predictions, they're fine when you're right but have a habit of biting you on the @rse when you're wrong, either way, what is certain, is that they're not facts.

Padav, did your Daddy ever buy you a train set? Were you disappointed when there was just track and no trains and no transformer to power it?

That is what you are expecting people to accept when you say it will only cost £16 Billion. YOU ALSO NEED TO BUY TRAINS!

HS2 have costed out an optimisic view of what it will cost. That optimisic view becomes £65 Billion but they say they are going to offswet that by increased trade and fares.

They think that the trade will all be one way and nobody will think that it sets up a new market for foreign companies to import and take away jobs, or that the fares will be too expensive compared to other forms of transport.

Look at any major project, have any come in under budget?

To budget for £40 million and end up spending £400 Million +, is it not conceivable that the £65 BILLION might just cost a bit more when the project is signed off?

There are alternatives, investing in the dockyards for example, building a new airport (or expanding Birmingham) all of which will have less damage to the environment that this White Elephant.

Malc London wrote:
Padav, did your Daddy ever buy you a train set? Were you disappointed when there was just track and no trains and no transformer to power it?

That is what you are expecting people to accept when you say it will only cost £16 Billion. YOU ALSO NEED TO BUY TRAINS!

HS2 have costed out an optimisic view of what it will cost. That optimisic view becomes £65 Billion but they say they are going to offswet that by increased trade and fares.

They think that the trade will all be one way and nobody will think that it sets up a new market for foreign companies to import and take away jobs, or that the fares will be too expensive compared to other forms of transport.

Look at any major project, have any come in under budget?

To budget for £40 million and end up spending £400 Million +, is it not conceivable that the £65 BILLION might just cost a bit more when the project is signed off?

There are alternatives, investing in the dockyards for example, building a new airport (or expanding Birmingham) all of which will have less damage to the environment that this White Elephant.

So where are the container ports in Leeds & Birmingham?
Do you propose to build more motorways to solve the lack of transport infrastructure capacity post 2025?
What are your practical solutions? And not just invest in what we have, that has already been tried?
Easy to be critical isn't it? Difficult to be constructive? Try it

@Malc London - do you permanently live in a world of unreality where little things called FACTS are routinely ignored on a whim, if they don't suit your reasoning process - I'm only asking because your comments seem to reveal this underlying character flaw? Firstly you still haven't retracted your false statement about the budgeted cost of HS2 phase 1, secondly why do you persist in banging on about the construction costs of Scotland's Holyrood Parliament building - is it relevant to HS2; absolutely NOT but what is relevant is an examination of two quite recent major rail infrastructure projects; namely HS1 and the WCML upgrade, HS1 (a new line built on a new route in much the same way as HS2 will be, came in on time, yes it was started late due to political indecision and more or less on budget - a recent National Audit Office report stated that it cost £6.1bn against an original forecast of £5.8bn. The WCML upgrade (a project very similar to that proposed by anti-HS2 campaigners as an alternative means of increasing capacity) original budget £1.9bn, eventual cost, more than £9bn and years late, causing untold misery and disruption for the rail travelling public (I know - I was one of them!). What does this tale tell us - the blindingly obvious conclusion that if you want to dramatically increase quality, speed, reliability and capacity in our rail network where it is needed and do it the least disruptive manner, you follow the new build route and not the tried and failed upgrade method - end of lesson! Finally, coming back to HS2 budgets and cost of rolling stock - I realise you're not going to accept this explanation because it is complex but if you follow this URL link, a real expert on rail systems (William Barter) rather than the self-appointed armchair versions populating the anti-HS2 campaign provides an in-depth account -
http://yestohs2.blog
spot.co.uk/2012/02/h
s2-rolling-stock-cos
ts-overlooked-not.ht
ml

Malc London wrote:

Chiltonians wrote:
Also can you confirm some other facts? Such as HS2 phase 1 (London to Birmingham) will cost £16.3b

That is indeed the optimistic estimate cost as at 2q 2011 prices for The capital construction cost.

It doesn't take into account Rolling stock capital costs ( the trains) or operating costs. These costs should almost double your figure.

I don't think this takes into account interest costs.

HS2 figs include 40% optimism bias.

Your figures do not take into consideration massive income and substantial third party investment. Not to mention the massive regeneration spin offs and job creation opportunities relating to, for example, wider site development around Old Oak Common! My list could go on.

Padav, the spiralling cost of other major projects is relevant because it shows that a runaway train can eat up the budget in no time. A budget set by supporters who want to get the project started knowing that it's unlikely to be pulled even when costs go out of control.

Promises of jobs up north and untold wealth for those living beside the line have clouded your judgement.

You are very adept at accepting the positives you have been fed, and ignoring anything negative.

You dismiss people losing their homes as a natural consequence and something tells me you are secretly happy about it.

Padav, the spiralling cost of other major projects is relevant because it shows that a runaway train can eat up the budget in no time. A budget set by supporters who want to get the project started knowing that it's unlikely to be pulled even when costs go out of control.

Promises of jobs up north and untold wealth for those living beside the line have clouded your judgement.

You are very adept at accepting the positives you have been fed, and ignoring anything negative.

You dismiss people losing their homes as a natural consequence and something tells me you are secretly happy about it.

Padav, the spiralling cost of other major projects is relevant because it shows that a runaway train can eat up the budget in no time. A budget set by supporters who want to get the project started knowing that it's unlikely to be pulled even when costs go out of control.

Promises of jobs up north and untold wealth for those living beside the line have clouded your judgement.

You are very adept at accepting the positives you have been fed, and ignoring anything negative.

You dismiss people losing their homes as a natural consequence and something tells me you are secretly happy about it.

@Malc London - thank you for your considered response - yes, of course budgets can spiral out of control and a more relevant budget in Scotland might have been the Edinburgh tram project? The point I was making is that recent history of major heavy rail projects (HS1 vs WCML upgrade) has clearly demonstrated the huge potential pitfalls present in following the tried and failed method advocated by those residing close to the approved phase 1 pathway. Yes, I accept there are huge potential problems with HS2 - it would be amazing if there were not massive challenges to be overcome with a scheme of this nature and scale. The HS2 project is a series of trade-offs - having looked at these objectively, I have concluded that the positives far outweigh the negatives - that is why I support the project. I do not revel in the negative consequences accruing to a relatively small number of genuine cases but what we (the UK as whole) need to do is put these in perspective. The very small number of genuine cases should be adequately compensated and we move on. What is happening is that many of those negatively impacted are indulging in duplicitous activities, including endless spinning of negative stories - this one being an obvious example, propagated no doubt because the author was "tapped up" by anti-HS2 activists, as they seek to mould public opinion to their campaign aims, ie. wrecking the project at the planning stage - it is that mendacious goal that motivates me to counter the numerous false messages spread to acheive this underhand goal.

When is something ‘spinning’ and when is it reporting? This is the internet age, look up the minutes yourself (no need to travel anywhere!) and read them. On their own they do not mean much – just a small sign that all is not perfect with the progress. However put these treasury induced delays together with the MPA ‘amber-red’ status and the ongoing collapse in the benefit/cost ratio (all verifiable facts not spin) and the message is building that HS2 is not the 100% fantastic thing that the proponents are telling us. My expectation is that the next time the business case is re-calculated the BCR will fall below 1 even on official figures (plenty of independent experts have calculated the figure to have always been on the ‘loss’ side of the profit/loss boundary, only arguing about how big the losses will be). At this point the question becomes how our esteemed politicians can shuffle quietly away from the project without losing face. Let’s hope team GB win loads of medals so it can be buried in some good news...

@gibbshome - you make some valid points. I would raise the following challenges; a) we know that the change in BCR is part of a game being played in advance of any court room shenanigans involved with the Judicial Reviews lodged by anti-campaign groups and b) who are the people sitting on the MPA - we know what their role is supposed to be and perhaps flagging up concerns forms part of that process - the point I am raising here is that Quangos are just as vulnerable to political pressure (for or against a particular policy) being exerted in a less than transparent fashion. If we really have to focus on the BCR and it has become a cause celebre for anti-HS2 campaigners, the ratio of measured benefits to costs is primarily driven by the total headline budgeted cost - it is here that I share concerns with those viscerally opposed to the project - just why does it cost so **** much to build HS2, in comparison with other similar projects on the other side of La Manche, eg. 302km Tours - Bordeaux extension of the LGV Atlantique; total cost = 7.8bn€ or approx. £6.50bn - that's less than 40% on a pro-rata comparison basis. I realise that the headline budget for HS2 has been inflated by its inheritance of a complete rebuild of Euston as London terminus (which was on the cards anyway but perhaps not so comprehensive) which has added perhaps £3bn, plus tunnelling under London is expensive and agricultural land costs in the UK are approx four times those in France, but all of these factors still don't add up to the massive differential in total costs. It is on this aspect of HS2 that public scrutiny SHOULD be focussed, demanding much more transparency in the tendering & procurement process - sadly the antics of anti-HS2 campaign groups are deflecting public gaze from this vital element of the HS2 debate - it might be argued that the activities of anti-HS2 campaigners could end up costing all UK taxpayers many £billions wasted in excess profits for the companies involved in designing and constructing the new line - ironic isn't it?

To padav: I’m afraid you’ve lost me with your attempt to link the BCR with JR? As I understand things the Judicial Reviews are questioning the process and procedures used to arrive at the decision announced by Justine Greening in January – things like ignoring EU requirements for correct environmental assessments of alternatives, poorly performed ‘consultations’, etc. The BCR figure on the other hand should be used to compare different projects for value. Two years ago the figure of 4:1 (for the Y) was a major part of the justification, along with other benefits such as environmental and North-South transformation. As more information has come in these ‘benefits’ have shrunk away, and if campaigners can be ‘blamed’ for that it is only that they have had the temerity to question the pronouncements of the ‘experts’ and their tame politicians and shine a light on the reality. As for the MPA I would agree that their role will absolutely be to flag up concerns, but that does not mean that the concerns flagged up are somehow invalidated! If HS2 was examined and found on course and fully deliverable then I’m sure the man from the DfT would have been offering up the rating and not have had to have it dragged out of him by Margaret Hodge.
Finally, you really cannot blame campaigners for construction costs here compared to anywhere else! Transparency in tendering and procurement is of course necessary and I’m sure that many civil servants at all levels get very exercised on this topic across the whole of government. Suggesting that campaigners are costing the country money is a bit off the mark when as far as I can see they are more likely to make the single biggest saving in the entire history of the country...

Alternatives to the High Speed Two (HS2) rail link would not solve the capacity problems on Britain's railways, MPs say.

A report by the Parliamentary Inquiry into Britain's rail capacity says only the high-speed rail network can create the extra capacity needed.

From BBC News -
HS2 rail alternatives no solution, MPs say.
Alternatives to the High Speed Two (HS2) rail link would not solve the capacity problems on Britain's railways, MPs say.
A report by the Parliamentary Inquiry into Britain's rail capacity says only the high-speed rail network can create the extra capacity needed.
The MPs found that alternatives, such as incremental upgrades to the existing network, would not be sufficient.
Opponents of HS2 say the report looked at a "limited" set of alternatives.
In January, the first phase of HS2 was given the go-ahead by the government, despite strong opposition from campaigners opposed to the environmental damage they say it will cause.
Phase one, between London and Birmingham, should be running by 2026, with the rail link later extending to northern England.
The report is the culmination of a four-month inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for High Speed Rail, with representatives from all three of the main political parties.
The group saw submissions from 60 stakeholders within and outside of the rail industry.
A panel of MPs took evidence from 11 witnesses during two inquiry sessions.
The report concludes that:
• The rail network is close to being full as passenger numbers predicted for a decade's time are currently being reached
• Railways are seeing growth at over 5% despite the recession.
• Alternatives to HS2 would not meet peak demand, and would do little to help local services or freight
• The risk of under-providing capacity are severe and are much more serious than the risks of over-providing
Graham Stringer, co-chairman of the parliamentary group, said that claims that "piecemeal upgrades" of existing lines can create sufficient capacity have been proved wrong.
He added: "All of the available evidence makes clear that the very running of our railways is under threat as we fast approach total saturation on some of the major trunk lines.
"HS2 remains the only proper and practicable solution to creating sufficient long-term capacity for Britain's railways."
Penny Gaines, chairwoman of campaign group Stop HS2, said: "The writers of the report appear to have looked at the issue through... a very narrow set of filters, and compared a very limited number of alternatives."
She added that the growth in "telepresence videoconferencing", which she said was reducing the number of long-distance journeys over all modes of transport, had not been taken into account.
Chris Howe, director of HS2 Northwest, said that the group agreed with all the findings presented by the report.
"The alternatives fail the northwest on capacity grounds. HS2 is a crucial lifeline for the north-west and midlands."

The outcome of this report is given by the name of the group - All-Party Parliamentary Group for High Speed Rail, which was launched as "a powerful new voice in favour of building a new high speed rail line". I like the quote from Beleben (http://beleben.word
press.com/): "So the APPGHSR inquiry was the equivalent of the Flat Earth Society inviting people to give evidence on the shape of the planet. The outcome was never going to be in doubt".

It is a pity really, as the questions the group nominally set out to answer are important and quite valid. However in the rush to say yes to HS2 the group ignore all the parts of the network that really have capacity problems and that HS2 cannot improve...

@gibbshome - Re: Changing BCR and Judicial Reviews - all I can say is "do keep up"! - DfT and HS2 Ltd aren't stupid (although some of the more vociferous anti-campaigners like to throw barbed insults at them like confetti) - they've simply stripped out (temporarily) some of the claimed measureable benefits that might be open to challenge (in court) - this to provide the legal team with a stronger argument (in court). I'm surprised you aren't aware of this procedural ploy? Re: Total project costs - the collateral damage (to public opinion) inflicted by the constant drip feed of negative commentaries (in the main emanating from the Telegraph - now there is a paid moutpiece of the anti-H2 brigade!) means that the debate is focussed on the actual project and in particular (because this is the sole aim of Chiltern based anti-campaigners) on the approved ROUTE3 pathway - what UK plc should be doing is gathering round the consensus that High Speed Rail is required and how we can do it in the most cost-effective manner. That different emphasis would immediately begin to shine a light on the total budget and spawn comparison between HS2 and comparable projects elsewhere in Europe - this change alone would begin to drive down the total headline budget of HS2 (phases 1 & 2) with should be close to £20bn, not well north of £30bn!!!

Comparable projects elsewhere in Europe? You mean like the Dutch?


The new “Fyra” high-speed service in the Netherlands — opened just two years ago — is close to financial collapse with passengers shunning its premium fares and trains running up to 85% empty. The line, between Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Breda, cost taxpayers more than £7 billion to build but is losing £320,000 a day.  The Dutch infrastructure minister announced a bailout late last year after the line’s operator ran up a debt of Euro 2.4 billion (£2 billion). 

Comparable projects elsewhere in Europe? You mean like the Dutch?


The new “Fyra” high-speed service in the Netherlands — opened just two years ago — is close to financial collapse with passengers shunning its premium fares and trains running up to 85% empty. The line, between Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Breda, cost taxpayers more than £7 billion to build but is losing £320,000 a day.  The Dutch infrastructure minister announced a bailout late last year after the line’s operator ran up a debt of Euro 2.4 billion (£2 billion). 

@Malc London - good attempt to mislead readers again - what you haven't mentioned, but is rather pertinent, is that the service you refer to isn't actually running with High Speed rolling stock, because it wasn't ordered in time. On the route in question, there is a High Speed rolling stock service running, in the form of the SNCF Thayls operation and guess what; it is going from strength to strength, winning record passenger numbers, prompting Dutch taxpayers to question the competence and foresight of their own rail operator - @Malc London, once again it does help if you provide ALL of the facts rather than just selectively edit those that appear to support your case - me thinks you've been reading too many of those confounded anti-HS2 campaign websites again?

@Malc London - a major flaw in your perspective on this, admittedly complex topic, is your inability to separate High Speed Rail service provision; the trains on the line, and rail infrastructure; the lines themselves. When I talked about comparison across Europe to drive cost savings, I was specifically referring to the process of constructing new High Speed Rail lines, which continues apace on the other side of La Manche, but due largely to the attitudes on display here, ie. standard response of "could be a good idea just so long as IT'S NOWHERE NEAR ME", seems to run into the buffers over here in dear old blighty, which explains in part why the UK always seems to be running twenty years behind!

France – all TGV projects not begun or under contract “must be re-evaluated”
Belguim – decided not to build high speed line between Brussels and Luxembourg as the result of cost benefit analysis
Netherlands – plans for high speed line Amsterdam to Germany have been suspended
Poland – plans are shelved to build high speed rail line as project costs had already risen by 40%. Instead existing lines will be upgraded
Portugal and Spain – high speed lines delayed or cancelled/closed.

This picture is repeated across the world. Several studies have indicated that the vast majority of high speed lines require an ongoing subsidy of billions of pounds per year per country. This is not a NIMBY scheme but NIABY (not in anyone’s backyard) – a bad idea is a bad idea wherever it goes.

Padav, I don't separate the trains from the track, or the funds to run a profitable service, because it's all connected. It's the cost of the project against the benefit, and to do this you need a real idea of the cost, and the real cost, not HS2's version at 2011 prices. This is why I refer to major projects which always seem to go massively over budget.

As we approach the Olympics, it's worth noting that the original cost was said to be £2.4 Billion, current estimate £13 Billion.

Leaving aside the environmental damage, we need to know how much it will really cost.

As for NIMBY, try making a case to the 1000's of people who will lose their homes, many renting in low cost housing who may not receive compensation and will not be able to find anywhere else locally to live. There is already a shortage of low cost housing in London, not a problem I know for Northerners.

@Malc London - the arguments advanced by anti-HS2 brigade campaigners revolve almost exclusively around the large headline budget figure forecast for its construction. It's a convenient vehicle to bash the HS2 project because by its very nature it is long-term and therefore speculative in nature - no one can predict the future with absolute clarity and the further forward you look the more uncertain any forecast becomes. This provides the anti-brigade with wonderful opportunities to score points into seemingly open goals. None of that diminishes the case for HS2. In the late 50s and 60s the beginnings of a comprehensive UK wide motorway network were laid - doubtless causing much anguish for those whose properties and idyllic lifestyles were disrupted - today we take the connectivity and convenience provided by the UK motorway network for granted without a second thought - it is (for better or worse) considered simply as part of progress. High Speed Rail faces in the UK now faces exactly the same profound crossroads of choice - do we embrace it or simply turn away. Those against, virtually all of them motivated by naked self-interest - the new line is impacting on them through close proximity, now attempt to distort and manipulate public opinion to side with their concerns. I believe this is short termist and self defeating in nature. Once HS2 is underway and even more so when in operation, the vast majority of succeding generations will see its construction (and the extensions it will doubtless spawn to provide a more comprehensive UK-wide HSR network) as prescient and wise. You disagree (because the line comes quite close to you?) - only time will tell who is correct.

padav wrote:
@Malc London - the arguments advanced by anti-HS2 brigade campaigners revolve almost exclusively around the large headline budget figure forecast for its construction. It's a convenient vehicle to bash the HS2 project because by its very nature it is long-term and therefore speculative in nature - no one can predict the future with absolute clarity and the further forward you look the more uncertain any forecast becomes. This provides the anti-brigade with wonderful opportunities to score points into seemingly open goals. None of that diminishes the case for HS2. In the late 50s and 60s the beginnings of a comprehensive UK wide motorway network were laid - doubtless causing much anguish for those whose properties and idyllic lifestyles were disrupted - today we take the connectivity and convenience provided by the UK motorway network for granted without a second thought - it is (for better or worse) considered simply as part of progress. High Speed Rail faces in the UK now faces exactly the same profound crossroads of choice - do we embrace it or simply turn away. Those against, virtually all of them motivated by naked self-interest - the new line is impacting on them through close proximity, now attempt to distort and manipulate public opinion to side with their concerns. I believe this is short termist and self defeating in nature. Once HS2 is underway and even more so when in operation, the vast majority of succeding generations will see its construction (and the extensions it will doubtless spawn to provide a more comprehensive UK-wide HSR network) as prescient and wise. You disagree (because the line comes quite close to you?) - only time will tell who is correct.

Ah, progress, yes didn't the motorway significantly contribute to the demise of many branch line Railways? Far from it being progress, it seems there's a never-ending circle of f%ck ups with the whatever being 'flavour' of the month, each time contributing to the demise and at the expense of another.It's not progress, it's removing and limiting of choice.

I'm not even sure how you can compare HS2 with the motorway. How many junctions does the motorway network from High Wycombe to Birmingham have compared to that being being proposed with HS2?

Lastly, aren't you going to answer Gibbshome?

wayneo wrote:

padav wrote:
@Malc London - the arguments advanced by anti-HS2 brigade campaigners revolve almost exclusively around the large headline budget figure forecast for its construction. It's a convenient vehicle to bash the HS2 project because by its very nature it is long-term and therefore speculative in nature - no one can predict the future with absolute clarity and the further forward you look the more uncertain any forecast becomes. This provides the anti-brigade with wonderful opportunities to score points into seemingly open goals. None of that diminishes the case for HS2. In the late 50s and 60s the beginnings of a comprehensive UK wide motorway network were laid - doubtless causing much anguish for those whose properties and idyllic lifestyles were disrupted - today we take the connectivity and convenience provided by the UK motorway network for granted without a second thought - it is (for better or worse) considered simply as part of progress. High Speed Rail faces in the UK now faces exactly the same profound crossroads of choice - do we embrace it or simply turn away. Those against, virtually all of them motivated by naked self-interest - the new line is impacting on them through close proximity, now attempt to distort and manipulate public opinion to side with their concerns. I believe this is short termist and self defeating in nature. Once HS2 is underway and even more so when in operation, the vast majority of succeding generations will see its construction (and the extensions it will doubtless spawn to provide a more comprehensive UK-wide HSR network) as prescient and wise. You disagree (because the line comes quite close to you?) - only time will tell who is correct.

Ah, progress, yes didn't the motorway significantly contribute to the demise of many branch line Railways? Far from it being progress, it seems there's a never-ending circle of f%ck ups with the whatever being 'flavour' of the month, each time contributing to the demise and at the expense of another.It's not progress, it's removing and limiting of choice.

I'm not even sure how you can compare HS2 with the motorway. How many junctions does the motorway network from High Wycombe to Birmingham have compared to that being being proposed with HS2?

Lastly, aren't you going to answer Gibbshome?

I think the VERY plan IS that HS2 will lead to the demise of some forms of transport and travel. Thus:

redution in long distance travel by car/road;

reduction in short distance flights;

reduction in lorry haulage (more use of rail freight);

and will result in more people using better and more regular local train services.

wayneo wrote:

padav wrote:
@Malc London - the arguments advanced by anti-HS2 brigade campaigners revolve almost exclusively around the large headline budget figure forecast for its construction. It's a convenient vehicle to bash the HS2 project because by its very nature it is long-term and therefore speculative in nature - no one can predict the future with absolute clarity and the further forward you look the more uncertain any forecast becomes. This provides the anti-brigade with wonderful opportunities to score points into seemingly open goals. None of that diminishes the case for HS2. In the late 50s and 60s the beginnings of a comprehensive UK wide motorway network were laid - doubtless causing much anguish for those whose properties and idyllic lifestyles were disrupted - today we take the connectivity and convenience provided by the UK motorway network for granted without a second thought - it is (for better or worse) considered simply as part of progress. High Speed Rail faces in the UK now faces exactly the same profound crossroads of choice - do we embrace it or simply turn away. Those against, virtually all of them motivated by naked self-interest - the new line is impacting on them through close proximity, now attempt to distort and manipulate public opinion to side with their concerns. I believe this is short termist and self defeating in nature. Once HS2 is underway and even more so when in operation, the vast majority of succeding generations will see its construction (and the extensions it will doubtless spawn to provide a more comprehensive UK-wide HSR network) as prescient and wise. You disagree (because the line comes quite close to you?) - only time will tell who is correct.

Ah, progress, yes didn't the motorway significantly contribute to the demise of many branch line Railways? Far from it being progress, it seems there's a never-ending circle of f%ck ups with the whatever being 'flavour' of the month, each time contributing to the demise and at the expense of another.It's not progress, it's removing and limiting of choice.

I'm not even sure how you can compare HS2 with the motorway. How many junctions does the motorway network from High Wycombe to Birmingham have compared to that being being proposed with HS2?

Lastly, aren't you going to answer Gibbshome?

But it's about a lack of transport capacity infrastructure in the future so motorways are relevant. Do you want more motorways built??

This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............
...... Lines under construction--------
------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal
le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

So Padav - if they wanted to build a railway right through the middle of your home - a home that you had saved and worked for, a home that you had raised a family in - laughed, cried and had many happy times in. A home where the garden was mature and full of wonderful shrubs and trees that you had nurtured, you would be fine with that would you?
You would not object because it was "for the greater good"?
Well you are a far better person than me because I would fight tooth and nail for my house and I am very sorry if that makes me some sort of small minded person but this country needs "small minded" people to stop the over development of our AONB and people's homes and livelihoods.
At the very least, even if they do not win,they should be allowed to do as much as they can to stop it.
I am also fed up with the "well they built motorways" etc argument.
Motorways were needed.
This train line is not - it is a government vanity - and just as the antis don't "appear to listen to reason" so the pros are no better as they will not listen to the "anti's" arguments either.
People are going to be upset -mocking them and insulting them is not the answer.

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............

...... Lines under construction--------

------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal

le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............


...... Lines under construction--------


------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal


le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............



...... Lines under construction--------



------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal



le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

@demoness the second - you say the new line is not needed - that is your opinion - many others, amongst them the vast bulk of real experts in the complex field of knowledge (rather than the array of self appointed armchair versions populating the ranks of HS2 naysayers) beg to differ profoundly from your viewpoint - I agree with them and not you. You pose a question about the line coming through my house - if it was (and it isn't) I'd take the compensation and move one, end of story. When I moved to the house I live in now, we knew a by-pass was being planned, long overdue (it has in fact been on the books since 1960 - we moved in 1984). Eventually the road was built - there have been some positives and some negatives - a trade off if you like. We factored that into our decision and we have no complaints. We received an amount of money to compensate us for perceived measureable impact on our immediate environment. I detest the knee-jerk "not anywhere near me" reaction, prevalent amongst many anti-HS2 campaingers, praying on frightening levels of public ignorance, stirring up in a very sophisticated and calculated manner, public sentiment with a carefully crafted web of half-truths, gross exaggerations and downright porkies. HS2 (and probably HS3, 4 & 5 thereafter) IS needed to provide us with a long-term sustainable and credible mass passenger transport system for the next century.

Padav, you are indeed a martre to the transport system. A motorway yards from your front door, a 200 mph train every 5 minutes along your house and no doubt a runway at the end of your garden.

When you live in a sh*t area, it's little wonder you can't appreciate the impact on people who like to live with greenery, wildlife and peacefulness.

Chiltonians wrote:

wayneo wrote:

padav wrote: @Malc London - the arguments advanced by anti-HS2 brigade campaigners revolve almost exclusively around the large headline budget figure forecast for its construction. It's a convenient vehicle to bash the HS2 project because by its very nature it is long-term and therefore speculative in nature - no one can predict the future with absolute clarity and the further forward you look the more uncertain any forecast becomes. This provides the anti-brigade with wonderful opportunities to score points into seemingly open goals. None of that diminishes the case for HS2. In the late 50s and 60s the beginnings of a comprehensive UK wide motorway network were laid - doubtless causing much anguish for those whose properties and idyllic lifestyles were disrupted - today we take the connectivity and convenience provided by the UK motorway network for granted without a second thought - it is (for better or worse) considered simply as part of progress. High Speed Rail faces in the UK now faces exactly the same profound crossroads of choice - do we embrace it or simply turn away. Those against, virtually all of them motivated by naked self-interest - the new line is impacting on them through close proximity, now attempt to distort and manipulate public opinion to side with their concerns. I believe this is short termist and self defeating in nature. Once HS2 is underway and even more so when in operation, the vast majority of succeding generations will see its construction (and the extensions it will doubtless spawn to provide a more comprehensive UK-wide HSR network) as prescient and wise. You disagree (because the line comes quite close to you?) - only time will tell who is correct.

Ah, progress, yes didn't the motorway significantly contribute to the demise of many branch line Railways? Far from it being progress, it seems there's a never-ending circle of f%ck ups with the whatever being 'flavour' of the month, each time contributing to the demise and at the expense of another.It's not progress, it's removing and limiting of choice. I'm not even sure how you can compare HS2 with the motorway. How many junctions does the motorway network from High Wycombe to Birmingham have compared to that being being proposed with HS2? Lastly, aren't you going to answer Gibbshome?

I think the VERY plan IS that HS2 will lead to the demise of some forms of transport and travel. Thus: redution in long distance travel by car/road; reduction in short distance flights; reduction in lorry haulage (more use of rail freight); and will result in more people using better and more regular local train services.

More use of rail freight?????

Are you sure about that?

Railfreight was ruled out from HS2 due to it being slower in nature, Hammond seemed to think there MIGHT be a possibility that extra capacity as a result of all of these so called users using HS2 could be used for rail but that's clearly NOT the intention of HS2 in the first place.

Again, if the plan of HS2 is to see the demise of other forms of travel, then not only does that have an adverse impact on the economy but it also reduces choice.

Pretty ironic really that the same thing happened with the branch lines of the railway only for demand locally to be calling for their return. People don't necessarily want speed, they want choice and competitive pricing, It is evident to me that HS2 will do neither.

Thanks @Malc London for your candid assessment of my neighbourhood - in fact there are open fields directly behind our house (I'm looking at them right now). The road (A34) was here before in front and the by-pass (away to my left) is not a motorway as you describe it. Manchester Airport is 6km distant. Phase 2 of HS2 will (if my guess is correct) run approx 3km west of my house, in cutting as it descends under the runways. I appreciate the countryside just as much the next person but unlike you I can understand the balancing act required to facilitate transport provision in modern society. As for my area, apparently Alderley Edge is one of the most sought after villages in the whole of the UK - I certainly couldn't afford to live here if I tried to move in now. Reportedly, a higher concentration of millionaires than anywhere else in the UK - doesn't sound too bad to me?

@wayneo: "Railfreight was ruled out from HS2 due to it being slower in nature, Hammond seemed to think there MIGHT be a possibility that extra capacity as a result of all of these so called users using HS2 could be used for rail but that's clearly NOT the intention of HS2 in the first place. ---- Again, if the plan of HS2 is to see the demise of other forms of travel, then not only does that have an adverse impact on the economy but it also reduces choice. ----- pretty ironic really that the same thing happened with the branch lines of the railway only for demand locally to be calling for their return. People don't necessarily want speed, they want choice and competitive pricing, It is evident to me that HS2 will do neither.”.........
....@Wayneo - your response demonstrates the knee-jerk negativity routinely displayed within anti-HS sentiment. Mere mention of the three characters "HS2" and and blinkered negative perspectives are enagaged - if it's got anything to do with HS2, IT MUST BE BAD. HS2 will influence the Freight market by immediately freeing up slots on other rail pathways. In the longer term it might be possible to utilise HS2 directly for freight but this would require a change of current policy. Not sure if residents close to HS2 would appreciate the immeidate prospect of 24 hour round the clock operation (Freight trains would run during a period 23:00 to 04:00 hours) from day one? It will be for the market to determine which transport mediums decline in a post-HS2 environment. What HS2 will do is provide a credible alternative to short-haul, intra-European air travel. So instead of travelling to , Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds-Bradford Airport and boarding a flight to Paris or Brussels or Amsterdam, you'd have the alternative of a direct city centre to city centre service. That form of modal shift can only be beneficial in terms of reducing overall carbon emissions. Finally when it comes to competition and reducing prices, only a new line, a la HS2 can be built in a cost effective manner to European Interoperability Standards (see comments about running double decker trains) and only Interoperability will facilitate service provision by direct competitors, driving down prices - what do you think will happen to Eurostar's fares when Deutsche Bahn break their monopoly on HS1 bound services to and from the near continent? @Wayneo - your blanket negativity is rather depressing to behold?

padav wrote:
@wayneo: "Railfreight was ruled out from HS2 due to it being slower in nature, Hammond seemed to think there MIGHT be a possibility that extra capacity as a result of all of these so called users using HS2 could be used for rail but that's clearly NOT the intention of HS2 in the first place. ---- Again, if the plan of HS2 is to see the demise of other forms of travel, then not only does that have an adverse impact on the economy but it also reduces choice. ----- pretty ironic really that the same thing happened with the branch lines of the railway only for demand locally to be calling for their return. People don't necessarily want speed, they want choice and competitive pricing, It is evident to me that HS2 will do neither.”.........

....@Wayneo - your response demonstrates the knee-jerk negativity routinely displayed within anti-HS sentiment. Mere mention of the three characters "HS2" and and blinkered negative perspectives are enagaged - if it's got anything to do with HS2, IT MUST BE BAD. HS2 will influence the Freight market by immediately freeing up slots on other rail pathways. In the longer term it might be possible to utilise HS2 directly for freight but this would require a change of current policy. Not sure if residents close to HS2 would appreciate the immeidate prospect of 24 hour round the clock operation (Freight trains would run during a period 23:00 to 04:00 hours) from day one? It will be for the market to determine which transport mediums decline in a post-HS2 environment. What HS2 will do is provide a credible alternative to short-haul, intra-European air travel. So instead of travelling to , Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds-Bradford Airport and boarding a flight to Paris or Brussels or Amsterdam, you'd have the alternative of a direct city centre to city centre service. That form of modal shift can only be beneficial in terms of reducing overall carbon emissions. Finally when it comes to competition and reducing prices, only a new line, a la HS2 can be built in a cost effective manner to European Interoperability Standards (see comments about running double decker trains) and only Interoperability will facilitate service provision by direct competitors, driving down prices - what do you think will happen to Eurostar's fares when Deutsche Bahn break their monopoly on HS1 bound services to and from the near continent? @Wayneo - your blanket negativity is rather depressing to behold?

What "free slots"? What studies or business case supports this? trains aren't going to go missing because of HS2, any demand (assuming people use HS2 in the numbers predicted) offset from HS2 could result in less Carriage requirement but I would imagine the number of trains will remain the same , , be less usage of those If there a current rail journey between High Wycombe and Snow Hill then there will be same number of trains, just few numbers over the journey. Your approach is clearly, 'build it and they will come', rather risky when one considers how much is at stake.

As for freight being able to use the lines, if it was intended that be the case, then why isn't it supporting the policy?

Blanket negativity because there really isn't much to get excited about.

padav wrote:
@demoness the second - you say the new line is not needed - that is your opinion - many others, amongst them the vast bulk of real experts in the complex field of knowledge (rather than the array of self appointed armchair versions populating the ranks of HS2 naysayers) beg to differ profoundly from your viewpoint - I agree with them and not you. You pose a question about the line coming through my house - if it was (and it isn't) I'd take the compensation and move one, end of story. When I moved to the house I live in now, we knew a by-pass was being planned, long overdue (it has in fact been on the books since 1960 - we moved in 1984). Eventually the road was built - there have been some positives and some negatives - a trade off if you like. We factored that into our decision and we have no complaints. We received an amount of money to compensate us for perceived measureable impact on our immediate environment. I detest the knee-jerk "not anywhere near me" reaction, prevalent amongst many anti-HS2 campaingers, praying on frightening levels of public ignorance, stirring up in a very sophisticated and calculated manner, public sentiment with a carefully crafted web of half-truths, gross exaggerations and downright porkies. HS2 (and probably HS3, 4 & 5 thereafter) IS needed to provide us with a long-term sustainable and credible mass passenger transport system for the next century.

That is YOU though!
Why do you think everyone else has to feel the same?
When I bought my house, I did extensive research to make sure that there was no large scale building projects on the horizon. Had there been, I would not have bought this house.
No - HS2 is not near me BTW.

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............




...... Lines under construction--------




------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal




le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............





...... Lines under construction--------





------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal





le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

So if no HS2 beause of Buckinghamshire complaints how about building more motorways - could use M40, M4 and A34 - oh no road and rail capacity full up, lack of capacity post- 2030. I make people use canals or canoes or video/skype rather than visiting their families etc?

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............





...... Lines under construction--------





------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal





le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

No Demoness no point in me quoting any facts or figures re HS2 because anti-HS2 people either do not believe them or prefer to rely on myths perpetrated by Anti HS2 propaganda. Have a lovely day in the garden, I will enjoy the constant roar of the M40 when in my garden, so let's cancel HS2 and build more lovely motorways!

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............






...... Lines under construction--------






------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal






le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

So if no HS2 beause of Buckinghamshire complaints how about building more motorways - could use M40, M4 and A34 - oh no road and rail capacity full up, lack of capacity post- 2030. I make people use canals or canoes or video/skype rather than visiting their families etc?

Call me daft but where did I mention building more motorways?
How will HS2 help me and countless others get to Newbury or even Oxford?

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............






...... Lines under construction--------






------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal






le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

No Demoness no point in me quoting any facts or figures re HS2 because anti-HS2 people either do not believe them or prefer to rely on myths perpetrated by Anti HS2 propaganda. Have a lovely day in the garden, I will enjoy the constant roar of the M40 when in my garden, so let's cancel HS2 and build more lovely motorways!

AHHH
So you have the constant roar of the M40 in your garden.
THAT explains so much Piran.
You have noise so why shouldn't other people? ;)

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............







...... Lines under construction--------







------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal







le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

No Demoness no point in me quoting any facts or figures re HS2 because anti-HS2 people either do not believe them or prefer to rely on myths perpetrated by Anti HS2 propaganda. Have a lovely day in the garden, I will enjoy the constant roar of the M40 when in my garden, so let's cancel HS2 and build more lovely motorways!

AHHH
So you have the constant roar of the M40 in your garden.
THAT explains so much Piran.
You have noise so why shouldn't other people? ;)

Demoness the Second, while sitting on your psychiatric couch; maybe you are right - also perhaps I was not breast fed enough?
Want to join my campaign to close the M40 so that those who live near it can have some peace on a Saturday afternoon in their gardens? Or is this the small price of progress just like HS2?
Anyway: what is the meaning of life!
Off to set myself on fire on the BBQ- todal pip.

Isn't the beautiful countryside in the Chilterns for us all to enjoy? It doesn't matter where we live. We can all get out there to enjoy the peace and tranquillity. See the first of a new series of walks at http://bucksfreedomp
ress.blogspot.co.uk/
2012/05/celebrating-
bucks.html

Enjoy the photographs and then imagine how the Misbourne Valley will look when the construction begins....

Oh sorry, I did mean to be so old fashioned as to suggest you walk. I meant to say "re-mode", as Justine Greening calls it.

News too on my blog of her fantastic idea to dig up Ancient Woodland and move it out of the way of HS2.

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

demoness the second wrote:

piran wrote:

padav wrote:
This is getting tiresome now - I've tried very hard to explain why I support proliferation of High Speed Rail in Britain and HS2 in particular - I've also explained why I condemn the narrow motives driving the anti-HS2 community - if you don't accept my rationale - fine, it's a free country as they say. I'd hardly call a project scheduled to begin in 2016 and last 17 years, "flavour of the month" but each to their own. If you can't even grasp (or more likely just don't want to perceive) the similarities between the challenges now facing HS2 and those ranged against the motorways in the late 50s and 60s, this merely highlights your lack of vision. Finally the selective list posted by @gibbshome - where do you want me to begin - public contracts are constantly re-evaluated, taxpayer pressure groups would be jumping up and down if they weren't - posting that quote is meaningless gibberish - for the record here are some facts about lines currently under construction or planned in Europe (a non-exhuastive list)...............








...... Lines under construction--------








------ LGV Est second phase, due to open March 2016, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique (Tours–Bordeaux), extending the southern branch of the LGV Atlantique (also called LGV Sud-Ouest) due to open in 2017. LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire (Le Mans–Rennes), extending the western branch of the LGV Atlantique. By way of conext, here is an extract from an article dated 2nd June 2008 (so virtually four years ago) listing long term LGV plans -----Legislation being drawn up following the national environmental summit at the end of 2007 confirms that another 2 000 km of high speed lines will be launched by 2020. New lines listed in the first of three draft laws unveiled on April 30 by Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister of State for Ecology, Energy, Sustainable Development & Land Use Planning, include: Tours - Bordeaux; Montpellier - Perpignan; the Nîmes and Montpellier bypass; Bretagne - Pays de la Loire; the second section of LGV Est from Baudrecourt to Strasbourg; the eastern, southern and western branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône; Provence - Alpes - Côte d'Azur; Bordeaux - Toulouse; Bordeaux - Hendaye; and a line round the south of Paris linking LGV Atlantique with LGV Interconnexion and LGV Paris - Sud-Est. In Germany; Cologne–Aachen high-speed railway (upgraded line, 250 km/h), Cologne–Frankfurt high-speed rail line (new line, 300 km/h), Erfurt–Leipzig/Hal








le high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Frankfurt–Mannheim high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning), Hanover–Berlin high-speed railway (partially new line, 250 km/h), Hanover–Würzburg high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Mannheim–Stuttgart high-speed railway (new line, 250 km/h), Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h, under construction), Nuremberg–Munich high-speed railway (partially new line, 300 km/h)
Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line (new line, 250 km/h, incomplete), Hanau-Gelnhausen high-speed railway (new line, 300 km/h, in planning). In Italy they have a fully developed and growing High Speed Rail network, ITALO have just launched a private rival to the State owned Trentilia operation and construction of the next section of the 140 km Milano - Verona high speed line was officially launched on May 7. This list could go on and on and on and doesn't even include the St. Gotthard Base Tunnel project to faciliate through running High Speed Rail services from Northern to Southern Europe - this avalanche of information will certainly go in one ear and out of the other amongst the naysayers in Buckinghamshire's leafy lanes, who are fixated on a single goal; getting rid of the threat posed by a new train line coming coming through their backyard!

Padav good posts. I too have tried to explain why I support HS2 as a Buckinghamshire resident but I find the anti HS2 lobby either do not listen, or prefer half truths, myths and lies. None seem able to come up with any alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity. They want to hide their heads in the sand and do nothing. I find it very frustrating and hope the Government has the courage to go ahead with HS2 to ensure that the UK economy can prosper.

You believe your truth, we believe ours.
Who is to say what the truth is?
That is very profound and deep for this time of night.. ;))

Demoness the Second - it is based on facts and verifiable data. Any way, what is the meaning of life Demoness?
And what are your alternatives to solve the future lack of transport capacity? Do nothing is not an option on this one!

The anti HS2 folk would argue that their case is based on facts and verifiable data as well. After all hasn't the Dof T just come out and said that the benefits of HS2 are not as great as they originally said?
My alternatives to solve the future lack of transport?
Well as someone who uses trains all the time to travel around the country, I would like to see it become easier to get to where I want to go without going through London. I do not think I would ever use HS2 because I do not think it would help with my transport needs. Ask most people if they like travelling through London and you will find they answer in the negative.
Do you know it is almost impossible to get to Newbury and Reading from Aylesbury without going via London? I know this because I have tried it.
So if I have to go to either of these places, I have no choice but to drive.
Build on what we have - extend what we have and give customers easier access to destinations.
I think this is far better than building a ruddy great line that carves up the countryside and destroys homes and lives.

I am sure you will now blind me with facts and figures as to why this can not be done. :))

No Demoness no point in me quoting any facts or figures re HS2 because anti-HS2 people either do not believe them or prefer to rely on myths perpetrated by Anti HS2 propaganda. Have a lovely day in the garden, I will enjoy the constant roar of the M40 when in my garden, so let's cancel HS2 and build more lovely motorways!

AHHH
So you have the constant roar of the M40 in your garden.
THAT explains so much Piran.
You have noise so why shouldn't other people? ;)

Demoness the Second, while sitting on your psychiatric couch; maybe you are right - also perhaps I was not breast fed enough?
Want to join my campaign to close the M40 so that those who live near it can have some peace on a Saturday afternoon in their gardens? Or is this the small price of progress just like HS2?
Anyway: what is the meaning of life!
Off to set myself on fire on the BBQ- todal pip.

to be perfectley honest, i have some friends (yes i do really), whose garden backs onto the M40 @ Lane End, often sit out in the garden, and being truthful, you hear the noise of the traffic, but you simply don't take any notice of it, you adjust, its like living on a main road, you hear the traffic and its nothing.

Fine if you're deaf but otherwise it's a constant annoyance.

If we are to invest in railways, then ditch Greenings Folly and build more regional stations that people can actually use.

I'd prefer comfort, safety and reliability to a fast train that no-one can use unless you live either end of the track.

The train is a very expensive alternative to the car, really only for the wealthy. But if prices were reduced, local stations and lines previously closed were reopened, then that would be a worthwhile investment.

@Malc London: "I'd prefer comfort, safety and reliability to a fast train that no-one can use unless you live either end of the track." So that would be several million people or have I missed something - last time I looked the combined populations of conurbations directly served by HS2 (phases 1 & 2) exceeded 17 million. Please also stop propagating the myth that trains are only for "rich" people - please define "rich" in this context - your claim is meaningless. What we do know is that whilst travel generally is reducing, due to obvious economic factors, demand for rail is increasing relentlessly driven by various factors - for example; more and more young people are simply choosing not to even bother learning to drive - they don't even own cars in the same numbers as previous generations - this means long-term demand for rail is only going one way over the next few decades. You need to stop dealing with fantasy arguments and start dealing with harsh reality - doing nothing for the long-term is not an option and please don't try to deceive readers here by implying that no funding is going into the classic rail network because that's a lie as well - records sums are being invested right now in classic rail but it suits your argument to gloss over this FACT to mislead readers and advance your disengenuous aims.

Morag wrote:
Isn't the beautiful countryside in the Chilterns for us all to enjoy? It doesn't matter where we live. We can all get out there to enjoy the peace and tranquillity. See the first of a new series of walks at http://bucksfreedomp

ress.blogspot.co.uk/

2012/05/celebrating-

bucks.html

Enjoy the photographs and then imagine how the Misbourne Valley will look when the construction begins....

Oh sorry, I did mean to be so old fashioned as to suggest you walk. I meant to say "re-mode", as Justine Greening calls it.

News too on my blog of her fantastic idea to dig up Ancient Woodland and move it out of the way of HS2.

Sounds like you are suggesting moving the route to the side a bit to avoid the woodland - and then going straight through South Heath village instead?

Chiltonians wrote:

Morag wrote: Isn't the beautiful countryside in the Chilterns for us all to enjoy? It doesn't matter where we live. We can all get out there to enjoy the peace and tranquillity. See the first of a new series of walks at http://bucksfreedomp ress.blogspot.co.uk/ 2012/05/celebrating- bucks.html Enjoy the photographs and then imagine how the Misbourne Valley will look when the construction begins.... Oh sorry, I did mean to be so old fashioned as to suggest you walk. I meant to say "re-mode", as Justine Greening calls it. News too on my blog of her fantastic idea to dig up Ancient Woodland and move it out of the way of HS2.

Sounds like you are suggesting moving the route to the side a bit to avoid the woodland - and then going straight through South Heath village instead?

Sounds like there is something wrong with your "hearing".

Jumping to conclusions is a daft thing to do because it means you don't actually consider any other possibilities.

So @Morag - without wishing to jump to any conclusion (because that would be "daft") can you enlighten us about your masterplan for avoiding the "Ancient Woodland" in question? If your masterplan is (as I suspect) simply to cancel HS2, then perhaps it is you who are indulging in "daft" scenarios?

Hi Padav,
Whether or not HS2 gets built may ultimately be at the whim of a small set of judges, MPs and treasury mandarins but it is rather arrogant and presumptions to suggest that it could never be cancelled. There are plenty of examples of government big spending that should never have happened but got waved through anyway, so you are right to keep your hopes up that it will happen, but equally every time some new information comes out it appears that HS2 looks, dare I say, a little ‘whiter’ and a little more ‘proboscidean’ and one day our leaders might work out that the embarrassment of cancelling is less than the embarrassment of building...

gibbshome wrote:
Hi Padav,
Whether or not HS2 gets built may ultimately be at the whim of a small set of judges, MPs and treasury mandarins but it is rather arrogant and presumptions to suggest that it could never be cancelled. There are plenty of examples of government big spending that should never have happened but got waved through anyway, so you are right to keep your hopes up that it will happen, but equally every time some new information comes out it appears that HS2 looks, dare I say, a little ‘whiter’ and a little more ‘proboscidean’ and one day our leaders might work out that the embarrassment of cancelling is less than the embarrassment of building...

HS2 will not be cancelled (despite the small-minded and selfish "I am alright Jacks" in Buckinghamshire because
we (The British Nation) must have new transport capacity post 2025 -we need HS2 as vital infrastructure.
Also HS2 is supported by all major political parties. Also the investment makes sense on cost/benefit analysis.
So time you started to either suggest practical alternatives to provide new transport capacity post 2025 (more motorways??) or accepted HS2 and made sure we get best value for money and stop wasting money on pointless legal challenges that anti HS2 will lose with the only ones to gain are the lawyers.

@gibbshome - dare I say it but its sounds like you've been indulging just a little to much in the optimistic rhetoric spewing forth from anti-HS2 campaign websites - STOPHS2 being a prime example - as they attempt (in their own futile manner) to whip up a storm of controversy over every little aspect of HS2 policy - their latest wheeze is attempting to pull apart peak hour passenger loading figures on WCML. You and I both know there is only one game in town for the anti-brigade, 95%+ of them located in a narrow corridor nestling alongside the approved ROUTE3 pathway (an amazing coincidence don't you think?) and it is getting rid of the threat posed to their immediate environment posed by construction of the new line - where the undoubted disruption inherent within any project of this scale ends up is of little consequence to the campaigners, just as long as it's nowhere near them! There is no reasonable compromise possible so it seems that costly and unnecessary court action will be required to force through policy boasting a clear democratic mandate (no bucking the figures in that respect). Anti-campaigners will resort to any ploy, any subterfuge, any strategy to deliver their single, remorsless goal - the future prospects of UK plc - well they can go hang but don't fret we'll be OK in our cosy, affluent neighbourhood!

Good to see that no new arguments in favour of HS2 have come up!
For the record:
Judicial review will cost less than HS2 is spending on their PR team
The future prospects of the UK depend upon jobs, wealth creation, education. It does not depend upon a faster train between a few cities and London that will consume vast quantities of cash and simply increase the national debt.

Malc London wrote:
A question to the supporters of the scheme, why aren't you pressing for double decker trains? Time to do it is before they build the tunnels.

The specification and strategy for HS2 DOES include double deck trains. It has to to meet Euro regs.

Might be worth you actually reading up about the HS2.

For those silly people that seem to think we are comparing the difference between a coach and a double decker bus:

The difference in height between a standard height ('single deck') high speed train and a 'double deck' train is about 3 feet!

DERRRRRR!!!