The MaCanns could spread their influence (From Bucks Free Press)
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The perfect wife and mother, Rebecca runs a home, a village magazine and is working on her novel. She does not visit the gym or jog but is in amazingly good shape. She enjoys photography, playing the piano and arguing with the TV. She lives in Amersham with her husband and youngest child (aged nine). Her eldest, now 26, lives and works in Buckinghamshire.
The MaCanns could spread their influence
5:18pm Thursday 12th May 2011
Four years after her disappearance, Madeleine McCann is still missing. The McCanns are in the public eye once again.
On their daughter’s eighth birthday, they are lobbying the PM. They seem able to revive their high profile and remain at the forefront of people’s minds.
But according to one of the London papers a couple of weeks ago, there are over 25 unsolved crimes going back 20 years or so.
Youths, parents, children… Names we don’t recognise, faces that we’ve never seen before, people whose families grieve as deeply as Maddie’s.
Well since the McCanns have a knack of surfacing every now and then and reminding the UK about their missing daughter, could they be put to work on bringing all those other dozens of unsolved cases to the public’s attention?
Why not? Perhaps these people’s families lack media savvy, perhaps they are just very private people, maybe they have lost faith in the investigation process. So couldn’t they do with some help? The McCanns seem to have a lot of know-how.
This isn’t to be read as a slur on the McCanns. Rather a use of their vigorous campaigning. Why just campaign for one person?
They are tireless and hopeful. They already seem to represent the many mourning relatives of other missing/abducted/murdered people; are they not the face of grief?
It may well be that their continual appearance and re-appearance in the public eye will turn up some new lead.
But I also think that such energy and ability to dominate so many column inches every so often could be put to even better use.
Speak up for the others. Make it a UK-wide campaign.
It might even help some critics view the McCanns more kindly. And not just as neglectful parents who may or may not have had anything to do with Maddie’s disappearance, who decided to dine out, leaving their children alone in a foreign country.
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Comments(64)
KentP
says...
7:23pm Thu 12 May 11
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I for one am sick of the sight of them, so if they absolutely must remain in the public eye, then yeah this is the least they could do in order to appear vaguely sympathetic
NicM
says...
8:12pm Thu 12 May 11
demoness the second
says...
9:11pm Thu 12 May 11
NicM
says...
9:25pm Thu 12 May 11
demoness the second
says...
9:26pm Thu 12 May 11
NicM wrote:Rebecvor?
Where is Ivor? Rebecca have you got him locked away?
NicM
says...
9:30pm Thu 12 May 11
KentP
says...
9:33pm Thu 12 May 11
epress.co.uk/news/na
tional/9025008.McCan
ns_appeal_for_Camero
n_s_help/) demonstrates quite well why they're their own worst PR... some choice quotes:
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"We've met three separate home secretaries, and we're still not sure what the Government has actually done"
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what precisely do you want the government to do? its a sad (for you) but true fact: you aren't the only people who have suffered a loss in this world, try and get some perspective... more galling however, was to follow
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'Referring to the death of Mr Cameron's severely disabled six-year-old son Ivan two years ago, he added "Of course he's suffered his own loss, and I'm sure he is a loving father, so..." '
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whoa, wait... is it not at least *slightly* distasteful to play to Cameron's emotions like that?!
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he continues...
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"When you're in a position such as the Prime Minister, you have a responsibility. If you're not willing to work for a child, you have to ask, 'who are you working for'?"
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...presumably the *other* 63 million people in this country... again, I appreciate that its hard for them to let go, as one way or another, they must be carrying a huge burden of guilt over the ultimate fate of their daughter - I think its a bit rich to expect the government to push through further investigation into a largely exhausted case though
demoness the second
says...
9:39pm Thu 12 May 11
Do you see what I mean? It is easier to blame someone else than to really look deep within yourself...
KentP
says...
9:40pm Thu 12 May 11
NicM wrote:we should get the McCanns on the case
Where is Ivor? Rebecca have you got him locked away?
NicM
says...
9:47pm Thu 12 May 11
KentP
says...
9:58pm Thu 12 May 11
demoness the second wrote:absolutely, but we as a nation shouldn't 'enable' them by giving them a platform with which to blame everyone but themselves every few months
It's guilt though Kent - they have to blame someone. I am sure they blame themselves a lot BUT they can absolve themselves by transferring that blame.
Do you see what I mean? It is easier to blame someone else than to really look deep within yourself...
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I'm still not quite sure how they've never been done for negligence... I mean, I (fairly obviously I suspect) don't have children, so maybe I'm not quite as likely to relate to the situation, but I'm pretty certain that if/when I do have children, I won't ever be leaving them to their own devices whilst I go out for dinner
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the people of portugal collectively spoke the truth: they're *bad* parents and should have been made to bear at least some of the blame
demoness the second
says...
10:06pm Thu 12 May 11
KentP wrote:I have never been able to get my head round that.
demoness the second wrote:absolutely, but we as a nation shouldn't 'enable' them by giving them a platform with which to blame everyone but themselves every few months
It's guilt though Kent - they have to blame someone. I am sure they blame themselves a lot BUT they can absolve themselves by transferring that blame.
Do you see what I mean? It is easier to blame someone else than to really look deep within yourself...
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I'm still not quite sure how they've never been done for negligence... I mean, I (fairly obviously I suspect) don't have children, so maybe I'm not quite as likely to relate to the situation, but I'm pretty certain that if/when I do have children, I won't ever be leaving them to their own devices whilst I go out for dinner
.
the people of portugal collectively spoke the truth: they're *bad* parents and should have been made to bear at least some of the blame
If you have young children on holiday then you entertain them and you stay with them.
If you want a grown up holiday then let the little ones stay with relatives for a few days.
But this has all been said before..
KentP
says...
10:20pm Thu 12 May 11
NicM
says...
10:28pm Thu 12 May 11
I think the guilt would be worse than anything a court could do though.
demoness the second
says...
6:21am Fri 13 May 11
NicM wrote:I tend to agree with you Nic - the DM would have gone into self destruct with indignation had this been a parent on benefits on a sink estate.
And I'm sure if they had been a factory worker and a cleaner in Benidorm then they would have been charged with something.
I think the guilt would be worse than anything a court could do though.
But as its a nice white middle class couple......
Rebecca Leon
says...
9:32am Fri 13 May 11
:
He's cooked me an entirely average Beef Stroganoff so far and find he can fix kettles, radios and irons quite well too. Given enough time.
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Just wish he'd put the loo seat down afterwards...
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Demoness - spot on. Turning blame outwards is more comfortable than putting it where it belongs. Inside.
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And is it really the PM's job to proceed with the investigation?
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I don't know, after all their pain and all these years I still find I can't warm to the McCanns as I can Stephen Lawrence's Mum. for example.
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And I have an uncomfortable feeling that the McCanns think the Portuguese police weren't up to scratch.
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Shouldn't they be harassing them? If anyone.
roger_totteridge
says...
9:43am Fri 13 May 11
* How did they get contact with the PM within a day of the disappearance? Would a regular couple from a council estate have had the same level of aid from the Labour gov? A PR agent transferred from a position with Labour to be their spin doctor? A private jet to get them out of Portugal when the tide of opinion turned against them?
* How does a sniffer dog that has been used successfully in dozens of cases indicate that a corpse has been in the apartment? No other deaths had been recorded there?
* The witness who said she saw a man carrying a child away from the apartment shortly before the discovery. Strange she did not decide to tell this to the police when they arrived, rather giving that bit of info some hours afterwards.
* The scent of a cadaver the dogs found on her clothes and in the boot of their hire car which was claimed had come from a dead body she had been near at work. Yep, cos you would take unwashed clothes from work with a corpse on holiday.
There are more holes in the story than a block of Swiss cheese.
I urge you to Google this case and go beyond the main stream media websites. The alternative to the 'truth' that they relentlessly shove down our throats is unbelievable.
KentP
says...
9:50am Fri 13 May 11
KentP
says...
9:53am Fri 13 May 11
roger_totteridge
says...
9:54am Fri 13 May 11
Whenever a Brit abroad gets in trouble it is always the fault of the foreign police for being a) corrupt, b) lazy or c) incompetent.
Typical British arrogance.
roger_totteridge
says...
9:55am Fri 13 May 11
KentP wrote:Of course!
allegedly, Roger... *allegedly*
Rebecca Leon
says...
11:14am Fri 13 May 11
:
Don't trust the parents much. Don't want to know any more details because my common sense and imagination serve me well enough.
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If I knew more, I'd be angry, bewildered and even more cynical than I am. Which I don't want.
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I don't know what's really behind this continual reviving of their plight though that's a terrible thing to say.
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There's something disturbingly void in the only picture we see of Madeleine. The face of an already troubled girl?
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Why don't we see other photos of her - might help to identify her, see other characteristics, see a three-dimensional representation of her?
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And how must the other siblings be coping when their sister - the vanished one - is still the focus of attention? The star of the household is the one who's gone.
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They're working on the PM in the hope he can exercise some influence over - who exactly?
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If the Portuguese police found no answers - and it was in their interests to (tourism, esteem worldwide, pressure from the UK?) - what are the McCanns hoping for?
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But in their support, losing a child would probably make me deranged, unbalanced and lose all rationality too.
:
Lastly, remember the Wests. Girls missing for a generation. Who were later found.
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If someone has taken Madeleine, someone as disturbed as the Wests, they will be able to hide her just as well for a long time.
J B Blackett
says...
1:24pm Fri 13 May 11
.
I wonder if anybody remembers a seven year boy called Mark Tildesley who disappeared from a Wokingham fair ground in 1984. His mother (Lavina) - not a middle class lady by any means - never gave up on the disappearance even though the police appeared to.
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I used to visit pubs in Wokingham and Mrs Tildesley was a regular visitor to these venues asking if anybody had witnessed anything. She had access to TV etc just after her son disappeared.
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Eventually her dogged persistence paid off and a filthy murderous gang of paedophiles was exposed as the perpetrators of this terrible crime.
.
The ring-leader called Bailey was convicted of rape and murder in 1991 and died in prison but never divulged where the little boy's body was deposed of or who the filthy gang members were.
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It was only through the persistence of this distraught but thoroughly decent lady that this evil swine was caught and stopped from committing further wicked crimes with his fellow indescribably nasty paedophiles. But it took nearly 7 years for some sort of justice to occur. And still insufficient , imho.
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Think how you would feel. Mrs Tildesley died this year still not knowing where her son Mark's body was - just like the Moors Murders relatives felt and still feel to this day.
Rebecca Leon
says...
2:44pm Fri 13 May 11
:
And it sounds like the police did continue their search anyway. Was it they who uncovered the paedophile ring?
:
And I doubt that the McCanns' pain is any more intense than the dozens of other parents whose children are killed.
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About one child a month has been stabbed in London since January this year.
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I just think with their resources, their energy and ability to work with the media they could be ambassadors for parents with abducted/murdered children.
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Anyway was this Mark Tildesley left on his own at the fair at seven years old? I hope not.
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I don't know. People respond differently to tragedy.
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When I suffered a loss, I wanted to hide away, shut myself away from everyone and be alone.
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The world seemed too much to bear. People, comments, questions... I feel that may be a common response.
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The McCanns seem to have conducted all their grieving and pain and hurt in full glare of the public gaze.
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Even A-list celebs run for privacy at times of upset. Odd, that's all.
J B Blackett
says...
3:46pm Fri 13 May 11
.
That may be true for you but when the tragedy or loss of a loved one is unresolved and appears that the authorities have lost interest that is very very depressing and disheartening.
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The reasoning is that even if there is just a faint hope the missing person is still alive , any information may help release them from this limboland the relatives inhabit. Who can blame any one for publicizing for as long as they can bear to do so.
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There is always a chance that someone somewhere may have seen or heard something even at second hand.
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Don't accuse the relatives or parents - the entire scenario is caused by the evil doers of all these terrible heartless crimes that are carried out for the most depraved of reasons. That's where the blame lies.
KentP
says...
3:55pm Fri 13 May 11
J B Blackett
says...
4:41pm Fri 13 May 11
KentP
says...
4:54pm Fri 13 May 11
Rebecca Leon
says...
6:09pm Fri 13 May 11
:
Sometimes you sound like a Victorian news reporter! 'Depraved' and 'evildoers'... (That was just an aside.)
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Wouldn't it be odd if every wake and burial in the UK were held in the street with members of the press allowed to attend?
:
But that's not the only thing that doesn't add up for me.
J B Blackett
says...
6:40pm Fri 13 May 11
.
I was referring to those people who appear to have lost their offspring or other to callous criminals and are soul-wrenchingly desperate to find any clue to have some kind of answer or closure to their never-ending perhaps life-long despair.
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An aside from me - I am and always have been an admirer of Charles Dickens - a journalist , novelist , philanthropist and a man with an experience of life's ups and downs beyond most people's ken nowadays. And a wonderful creative wordsmith.
.
If that makes me a Victorian , so be it.
NicM
says...
7:03pm Fri 13 May 11
The McCanns want the case reviewed, again, and seem to have got their way with Scotland Yard working on it. No doubt, because of the high publicity, that will involve senior detectives. Presumably the work they would have done won't get their attention. That's despite private detectives, paid for by donations, working on it for the last few years.
As people they will presumably never be able to rest but as a society there are countless occasions where we have to draw a line under cases unless new evidence emerges.
On top of this the McCanns do not come across sympathetically. When interviewed they come across as cold. We know that tears and hand-wringing don't indicate innocence, but there is little emotion shown, and they definitely manipulate situations.
J B Blackett
says...
7:42pm Fri 13 May 11
.
I could not predict how I would come across under the TV lights and microphones under the McCanns circumstances. I do know I would be extremely distressed and not acting 'normally' or be any good at PR like trained politicians.
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I am only guessing but possibly the McCanns , due to the way things have worked out for them , have become 'withdrawn' emotionally for self-protection and therefore unintentionally present themselves as remote and cold.
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I repeat it is supposition on my part , but my sympathy is still with these parents even though they do not appear to be doing themselves any favours. I just try and imagine myself in their shoes and wonder how I would feel.
NicM
says...
7:56pm Fri 13 May 11
demoness the second
says...
8:58pm Fri 13 May 11
J B Blackett wrote:The problem is that it is very very hard to feel any sort of empathy with parents who left their offspring alone in a foreign country - albeit even if they were in the same complex - to have a good time.
I am not talking about wakes or burials. .
.
I was referring to those people who appear to have lost their offspring or other to callous criminals and are soul-wrenchingly desperate to find any clue to have some kind of answer or closure to their never-ending perhaps life-long despair.
.
An aside from me - I am and always have been an admirer of Charles Dickens - a journalist , novelist , philanthropist and a man with an experience of life's ups and downs beyond most people's ken nowadays. And a wonderful creative wordsmith.
.
If that makes me a Victorian , so be it.
No, no and thrice no.
As I said before , they feel guilty and are transferring that guilt on to the authorities.
HAD they had not left those children, Maddy may still be here.
J B Blackett
says...
12:29am Sat 14 May 11
demoness the second
says...
6:00am Sat 14 May 11
J B Blackett wrote:Good point JBB but the trouble is it was a tragedy that could so have easily been prevented.
With such a terrible family tragedy in their lives , I can not bring myself to sit in judgement of these distressed people
It is the little girl and the siblings that I feel sorry for.
NicM
says...
7:58am Sat 14 May 11
J B Blackett wrote:But would you feel the same if they had been a factory worker and cleaner in Benidorm off to play bingo rather than a 'nice' middle class couple in a quieter area who went down the road to eat tapas? Or a single mum in this country who had left her kids to pop to the off licence?
With such a terrible family tragedy in their lives , I can not bring myself to sit in judgement of these distressed people
As Demoness pointed out the Daily Mail would have gone into meltdown in both those cases. The difference is that those parents would have been seen to 'deserve' their misfortune but if you suggest the same with the McCanns people leap to their defence.
I took advice some years ago about leaving my then 14 year old son on his own while I went to work. I was told that it wasn't illegal but if anything happened to him I could be prosecuted for child neglect. They should have been prosecuted and the sentence reflect what they have been through, but without a doubt they are guilty of neglect.
Melanie1
says...
8:04am Sat 14 May 11
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I also don't like the continuous dripfeeding of information ie. I think the twins were drugged or our sex life fell apart...
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Does anyone else remember Ben Needham the British boy who was kidnapped (and has still not been found) on Kos in 1991? He was with his grandparents at their isolated farmhouse when he disappeared. Because his parents were unmarried, young, from a council estate and apparently not photogenic enough they have been virtually forgotten Now that's a real tragedy!
demoness the second
says...
10:21am Sat 14 May 11
The thing is, with the McCann case people can actually take the moral highground because no decent parent would do what they did.
So it is not a case of "there but for the grace of god go I!"..... because no one in their right minds would ever do such a thing .
J B Blackett
says...
1:31pm Sat 14 May 11
"But would you feel the same if they had been a factory worker and cleaner in Benidorm off to play bingo rather than a 'nice' middle class couple in a quieter area who went down the road to eat tapas?"
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Yes. In my humble opinion (and I stress that it is only my opinion ) tragic situations to do with someone's children like these cases are nothing to do with class. In my mind , sympathy should not be class based and mine lies with all the relatives who ever they are.
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The really guilty people are the perpetrators of the terrible crimes against these families. Nobody seems keen on condemning these evil creatures - and that includes the two-faced hypocritical media who are always avidly looking for a 'story' like vultures pecking at prey.
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Sorry , folks - it must be me then that thinks like this.
Morag
says...
1:58pm Sat 14 May 11
J B Blackett wrote:I agree with everything JBB has written.
NicM wrote: "But would you feel the same if they had been a factory worker and cleaner in Benidorm off to play bingo rather than a 'nice' middle class couple in a quieter area who went down the road to eat tapas?" . Yes. In my humble opinion (and I stress that it is only my opinion ) tragic situations to do with someone's children like these cases are nothing to do with class. In my mind , sympathy should not be class based and mine lies with all the relatives who ever they are. . The really guilty people are the perpetrators of the terrible crimes against these families. Nobody seems keen on condemning these evil creatures - and that includes the two-faced hypocritical media who are always avidly looking for a 'story' like vultures pecking at prey. . Sorry , folks - it must be me then that thinks like this.
~
Whatever mistakes the McCanns have made and whoever they are and whatever one might think of them, they have paid a terrible, terrible price.
~
We weren't there and we don't know the family. We only see what the media shows us. There is no "moral highground". They have lost a child.
~
Save your "moral" condemnation for those that took her.
demoness the second
says...
2:24pm Sat 14 May 11
Morag wrote:LOL
J B Blackett wrote:I agree with everything JBB has written.
NicM wrote: "But would you feel the same if they had been a factory worker and cleaner in Benidorm off to play bingo rather than a 'nice' middle class couple in a quieter area who went down the road to eat tapas?" . Yes. In my humble opinion (and I stress that it is only my opinion ) tragic situations to do with someone's children like these cases are nothing to do with class. In my mind , sympathy should not be class based and mine lies with all the relatives who ever they are. . The really guilty people are the perpetrators of the terrible crimes against these families. Nobody seems keen on condemning these evil creatures - and that includes the two-faced hypocritical media who are always avidly looking for a 'story' like vultures pecking at prey. . Sorry , folks - it must be me then that thinks like this.
~
Whatever mistakes the McCanns have made and whoever they are and whatever one might think of them, they have paid a terrible, terrible price.
~
We weren't there and we don't know the family. We only see what the media shows us. There is no "moral highground". They have lost a child.
~
Save your "moral" condemnation for those that took her.
Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))
Seriously.... yes of course the person ( people who took her are beyond contempt, no one is saying otherwise).
BUT we are all condemning parents who left their 3 children unattended whilst they were out enjoying themselves and if it stops just one thoughtless parent from doing that, then the condemnation is worthwhile.
I cannot and will not comment on their behaviour afterwards because everyone reacts differently to grief.
BUT I will and do condemn them for leaving those children and whilst I feel sorry for them for paying that price,it was a price that they did not have to pay.
Morag
says...
5:06pm Sat 14 May 11
~
So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives.
~
Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOL
Rebecca Leon
says...
5:53pm Sat 14 May 11
:
'Please cite paragraph and line number...'
demoness the second
says...
6:14pm Sat 14 May 11
Rebecca Leon wrote:I said that people could take the moral highground with this particular case implying that no one would leave their child alone...
Morag: I don't think any one of the contributors has hinted at or said outright that they have led blameless lives. Have they?
:
'Please cite paragraph and line number...'
We can all take the moral highground over different things can we not?
demoness the second
says...
6:16pm Sat 14 May 11
Morag wrote:Oh dear.....
"LOL Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))"
~
So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives.
~
Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOL
I made a light hearted remark Morag because you and JBB do tend to banter a lot - HUGE apologies if I offended - and I really do mean that!
And as for mistakes - hell I have made loads BUT I have NEVER left my children alone and defenceless so I am sorry but I will condemn them.
Lorrainej
says...
7:20pm Sat 14 May 11
Morag
says...
8:10pm Sat 14 May 11
Morag
says...
8:37pm Sat 14 May 11
demoness the second wrote:Thank you D. You are right, we do banter and I probably over-reacted.
Morag wrote: "LOL Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))" ~ So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives. ~ Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOLOh dear..... I made a light hearted remark Morag because you and JBB do tend to banter a lot - HUGE apologies if I offended - and I really do mean that! And as for mistakes - hell I have made loads BUT I have NEVER left my children alone and defenceless so I am sorry but I will condemn them.
~
I just find this thread deeply upsetting. Yes, the McCanns should never have left their children like that. No, I have never left my children alone and it was wrong.
~
However, no-one can keep their child in sight for every minute. My son was a nightmare to take shopping when he was little. If I set foot in a clothes shop he would disappear in a flash under the rails - he thought it was great fun to play hide and seek. This was around the time that James Bulger was abducted and murdered. I had some heart stopping moments at the time.
~
~
I hate all this insinuation about not “trusting” the McCanns. Complaining about how they conduct themselves in public. Complaining because they are still doing everything they possibly can to find their child. I hate the fact that an armchair detective urges us to Google the case so we can find out God knows what.
~
I can only repeat what JBB said, “Unless you yourself have lost a child under such circumstances you can not possibly understand how they feel or why they are doing what they are doing”.
Morag
says...
8:38pm Sat 14 May 11
Lorrainej wrote:Thank you Lorraine.
Well said JBB and Morag. The warm, caring nature of you both shines through as always, and JBB don't ever apologise for showing this, it is a very endearing quality, and its a pity a few more more people are unable to show this.
demoness the second
says...
7:30am Sun 15 May 11
Morag wrote:I completely agree with you re remarking about the behaviour of the McCanns - there have been all sorts of conspiracy theories flying about - all of which are quite frankly ridiculous. Whatever way they behave is wrong according to some. So yes I do feel extremely sorry for them from that point of view..
demoness the second wrote:Thank you D. You are right, we do banter and I probably over-reacted.
Morag wrote: "LOL Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))" ~ So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives. ~ Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOLOh dear..... I made a light hearted remark Morag because you and JBB do tend to banter a lot - HUGE apologies if I offended - and I really do mean that! And as for mistakes - hell I have made loads BUT I have NEVER left my children alone and defenceless so I am sorry but I will condemn them.
~
I just find this thread deeply upsetting. Yes, the McCanns should never have left their children like that. No, I have never left my children alone and it was wrong.
~
However, no-one can keep their child in sight for every minute. My son was a nightmare to take shopping when he was little. If I set foot in a clothes shop he would disappear in a flash under the rails - he thought it was great fun to play hide and seek. This was around the time that James Bulger was abducted and murdered. I had some heart stopping moments at the time.
~
~
I hate all this insinuation about not “trusting” the McCanns. Complaining about how they conduct themselves in public. Complaining because they are still doing everything they possibly can to find their child. I hate the fact that an armchair detective urges us to Google the case so we can find out God knows what.
~
I can only repeat what JBB said, “Unless you yourself have lost a child under such circumstances you can not possibly understand how they feel or why they are doing what they are doing”.
But Morag - losing your son shopping is one thing because no matter how hard we try, they do wander- my daughter did it when she was 5 and gave me the worse 5 mins of my life. That is what happened to that poor little mite Jamie Bolger. The McCanns however, did not accidently lose sight of their little ones, they left them ....
That to me is the wrong part. Of course I have sympathy for them.. they have to live with that for the rest of their lives .
I suppose all I am saying is that this is one tragedy that could have so easily been prevented.
NicM
says...
7:58am Sun 15 May 11
The point is society condemns people who leave their children alone - that's why we have laws against it. It is not up to us to decide how much they have suffered and whether that pays for the crime (and they did commit a crime). They should have stood trial.
And over 90% of children who are harmed are harmed by someone within their immediate family - true stranger danger is very rare so it would be foolish if the McCanns are not looked at closely.
And I bet half the people that are defending them would say 'I knew there was something odd all along' if it did turn out that they had something to do with it, accidental or otherwise.
Oh and we judge others all the time - it is how we define social norms and the laws and unspoken rules that we live by.
If they had nothing to do with it the pain, guilt and grief they are going through must be immense and I am sorry for that pain. I also condemn, unreservedly, the perpetrator in this case - that goes without saying - but I won't be hypocritical about the rest of it.
Morag
says...
10:58am Sun 15 May 11
demoness the second wrote:Ok D, looks like we agree after all! We both feel sorry for them because they are analysed and criticised for the way they behave in such terrible circumstances.
Morag wrote:I completely agree with you re remarking about the behaviour of the McCanns - there have been all sorts of conspiracy theories flying about - all of which are quite frankly ridiculous. Whatever way they behave is wrong according to some. So yes I do feel extremely sorry for them from that point of view.. But Morag - losing your son shopping is one thing because no matter how hard we try, they do wander- my daughter did it when she was 5 and gave me the worse 5 mins of my life. That is what happened to that poor little mite Jamie Bolger. The McCanns however, did not accidently lose sight of their little ones, they left them .... That to me is the wrong part. Of course I have sympathy for them.. they have to live with that for the rest of their lives . I suppose all I am saying is that this is one tragedy that could have so easily been prevented.demoness the second wrote:Thank you D. You are right, we do banter and I probably over-reacted. ~ I just find this thread deeply upsetting. Yes, the McCanns should never have left their children like that. No, I have never left my children alone and it was wrong. ~ However, no-one can keep their child in sight for every minute. My son was a nightmare to take shopping when he was little. If I set foot in a clothes shop he would disappear in a flash under the rails - he thought it was great fun to play hide and seek. This was around the time that James Bulger was abducted and murdered. I had some heart stopping moments at the time. ~ ~ I hate all this insinuation about not “trusting” the McCanns. Complaining about how they conduct themselves in public. Complaining because they are still doing everything they possibly can to find their child. I hate the fact that an armchair detective urges us to Google the case so we can find out God knows what. ~ I can only repeat what JBB said, “Unless you yourself have lost a child under such circumstances you can not possibly understand how they feel or why they are doing what they are doing”.Morag wrote: "LOL Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))" ~ So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives. ~ Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOLOh dear..... I made a light hearted remark Morag because you and JBB do tend to banter a lot - HUGE apologies if I offended - and I really do mean that! And as for mistakes - hell I have made loads BUT I have NEVER left my children alone and defenceless so I am sorry but I will condemn them.
~
We agree that they should never have left them and it could have been prevented.
~
We cannot help but have sympathy for them because they have to live with that mistake. They have lost a daughter and will continue to do whatever they can to find her.
Morag
says...
11:06am Sun 15 May 11
NicM wrote:Ok Nic, looks like we disagree. I feel desperately sad for anyone who loses a much loved child, whoever they are and whatever the circumstances.
And I sincerely believe that people would react very differently if this was a single-parent on a sink estate that had just popped to the off-licence to get some cigarettes, or a working class couple in Benidorm who were in a local bar. The point is society condemns people who leave their children alone - that's why we have laws against it. It is not up to us to decide how much they have suffered and whether that pays for the crime (and they did commit a crime). They should have stood trial. And over 90% of children who are harmed are harmed by someone within their immediate family - true stranger danger is very rare so it would be foolish if the McCanns are not looked at closely. And I bet half the people that are defending them would say 'I knew there was something odd all along' if it did turn out that they had something to do with it, accidental or otherwise. Oh and we judge others all the time - it is how we define social norms and the laws and unspoken rules that we live by. If they had nothing to do with it the pain, guilt and grief they are going through must be immense and I am sorry for that pain. I also condemn, unreservedly, the perpetrator in this case - that goes without saying - but I won't be hypocritical about the rest of it.
~
I don’t condone neglect, nor do I defend their actions. I am not judging them because I wasn’t there and I don’t know them. Nor have I read every article written about them or followed the case closely. I admit that I know nothing about it other than what has been reported in the media.
~
It is possible that “they could have had something to do with it” but I am in no position to decide that and will leave that to the authorities. However, I do wonder why they are still putting themselves in the spotlight again four years later if they do know what happened.
~
If you think all this makes me a hypocrite, so be it. I can live with that.
I do wish I hadn’t let myself be drawn into this discussion as I find it distressing. I will now draw a line under it and leave it at that.
demoness the second
says...
12:10pm Sun 15 May 11
Morag wrote:In a nutshell yes! I don't buy into all these conspiracy theories and people looking at their every move.
demoness the second wrote:Ok D, looks like we agree after all! We both feel sorry for them because they are analysed and criticised for the way they behave in such terrible circumstances.
Morag wrote:I completely agree with you re remarking about the behaviour of the McCanns - there have been all sorts of conspiracy theories flying about - all of which are quite frankly ridiculous. Whatever way they behave is wrong according to some. So yes I do feel extremely sorry for them from that point of view.. But Morag - losing your son shopping is one thing because no matter how hard we try, they do wander- my daughter did it when she was 5 and gave me the worse 5 mins of my life. That is what happened to that poor little mite Jamie Bolger. The McCanns however, did not accidently lose sight of their little ones, they left them .... That to me is the wrong part. Of course I have sympathy for them.. they have to live with that for the rest of their lives . I suppose all I am saying is that this is one tragedy that could have so easily been prevented.demoness the second wrote:Thank you D. You are right, we do banter and I probably over-reacted. ~ I just find this thread deeply upsetting. Yes, the McCanns should never have left their children like that. No, I have never left my children alone and it was wrong. ~ However, no-one can keep their child in sight for every minute. My son was a nightmare to take shopping when he was little. If I set foot in a clothes shop he would disappear in a flash under the rails - he thought it was great fun to play hide and seek. This was around the time that James Bulger was abducted and murdered. I had some heart stopping moments at the time. ~ ~ I hate all this insinuation about not “trusting” the McCanns. Complaining about how they conduct themselves in public. Complaining because they are still doing everything they possibly can to find their child. I hate the fact that an armchair detective urges us to Google the case so we can find out God knows what. ~ I can only repeat what JBB said, “Unless you yourself have lost a child under such circumstances you can not possibly understand how they feel or why they are doing what they are doing”.Morag wrote: "LOL Morag and JBB agreeing- shocker :))" ~ So sorry D, I am just a poor little girly with no mind of my own. I am not like those other intelligent contributors on here who have the absolute right to pass judgement on the behaviour of bereaved parents. I have even made mistakes in my life which means strangers have every right to tell me that they have led blameless lives. ~ Just so I don't make the same mistake again - is there anyone else I shouldn't be agreeing with? LOLOh dear..... I made a light hearted remark Morag because you and JBB do tend to banter a lot - HUGE apologies if I offended - and I really do mean that! And as for mistakes - hell I have made loads BUT I have NEVER left my children alone and defenceless so I am sorry but I will condemn them.
~
We agree that they should never have left them and it could have been prevented.
~
We cannot help but have sympathy for them because they have to live with that mistake. They have lost a daughter and will continue to do whatever they can to find her.
I think that NicM does make a valid point though - were they from a sink estate, it would have been a different matter.
I also think that we will never know the truth....
Rebecca Leon
says...
12:43pm Sun 15 May 11
:
And NicM's right. We pass judgment all the time. All of us. For many things.
:
'Rotten driver', 'Spoilt child', 'Stupid idiot'...
:
Yesterday the family of the beheaded woman asked for some privacy in this difficult time.
:
A different woman, a different set of of circumstances but a death in the family all the same. (We don't know whether Madeleine's dead, of course...)
:
When did the McCanns have their private grieving?
:
I think we do have our own immediate feelings about people (even if only on TV).
:
I like Boris Johnson, Stephen Fry, Amy Winehouse and Mrs. Obama.
:
I don't like the Beckhams, Fiona Bruce or Professor Cox, the smiling scientist. And many others besides for example. Don't know why, never met any one of them, just basing it on their public personas (personae?).
:
Apologies for the glaring error in the title ('MaCanns')...
demoness the second
says...
12:47pm Sun 15 May 11
It is called being human and I refuse to believe that there is anyone out there who has never judged anyone else - we all do it, in our every day lives.
As for irrational hatred... for me it is Jamie Oliver.
I absolutely detest the man!!!!!
KentP
says...
12:57pm Sun 15 May 11
demoness the second wrote:there is nothing irrational about *that* particular hatred whatsoever
Well said Rebecca....
It is called being human and I refuse to believe that there is anyone out there who has never judged anyone else - we all do it, in our every day lives.
As for irrational hatred... for me it is Jamie Oliver.
I absolutely detest the man!!!!!
.
I did enjoy that in some survey which was carried out, his pre-prepared foods came out *worst* for salt content, given his (now seemingly hypocritical) moral crusade against poor food standards
demoness the second
says...
1:12pm Sun 15 May 11
If he ever called me "luv" or "darlin" I think I would get violent :))
NicM
says...
3:31pm Sun 15 May 11
I actually own several of Jamie's books but it is his activities away from being a good cook that are irritating. And Heston bl**dy Blumenthal - don't even get me started! He is in serious danger of becoming his own stuffing!
J B Blackett
says...
6:14pm Sun 15 May 11
.
When I was prevented fairly recently from trying to get into The Fat Duck (mainly due to the low weight of my wallet) - I shouted, through the letter box " Heston , you are far too modest and self-effacing. You really are. And we all love you - Not your food ; that's pretentious rubbish. It's you we love. You are good enough to eat ! " I exclaimed.
.
I think such a modest man should be proud and even brag about about how modest he is. He's lovely, loquacious, luminescent and local.
.
Well that's what I think , anyway.
Rebecca Leon
says...
6:39pm Sun 15 May 11
:
Nowadays Kirsty Young exasperates me.
:
And Jenni Murray with her increasingly stupid questions...
:
Probably no one here watches Backyard Science (kids' programme) with those two dubious Ozzie presenters. I hate them too.
:
See the list is long with me...
:
But I could happily watch or listen to Sandi Toksvig and Sue Perkins for prolonged periods of time.
demoness the second
says...
9:06pm Sun 15 May 11
Pah to him :))
Latest Blog entries
The perfect wife and mother, Rebecca runs a home, a bad temper and is working on her novel. She enjoys photography, playing the piano and likes almost anything that's out of fashion and uncool. She lives in Amersham with her husband and youngest child (aged ten). Her eldest, now 27, lives and works in Buckinghamshire.
NicM says...
7:22pm Thu 12 May 11
Would I have left my three very small children alone at any time (let alone in the evening in a foreign country)? No, never, but I am sure they have suffered for that mistake more than we can probably imagine.
But when you compare them to the mother of Sarah Payne I tend to agree with you. She has campaigned relentlessly in her daughter's name. However the difference with the McCann's is that they are trying to grasp a hope, any hope, that she may still be found, as happened to that girl in America. They are therefore motivated by their own need to find her rather than trying to prevent it happening or to help anyone else.
I won't criticise them - what they have gone through defies imagining.