The Wye Valley School to change name in academy shake-up

Bucks Free Press: The Wye Valley School The Wye Valley School

CHANGES will be made at a special measures school in Bucks, including a change to the school’s name and uniform.

The Wye Valley School was placed under special measures in January last year and is now expected to change its name to the Bourne End Academy.

The name change is expected to be announced in June and officially come into force when the school completes the switch to academy status.

In a letter home to parents, newly-appointed headteacher, Andrea Jacobson, said: “There is a clear interest in all parties (parents, students and staff) for both a uniform and name change when we convert to an academy.

“The statistics were clear that the preferred name (amongst students, parents and staff) for The Wye Valley School is Bourne End Academy and the preferred uniform colours are burgundy and silver.”

In a previous letter, interested parties were able to choose if they thought change was needed and what change they would vote for.

As well as a whole host of uniform colours to choose from, parents, staff and students were given three possible names to choose from.

It appears that the overall majority decided Bourne End Academy was a better choice than both Bourne End School and Bourne End High School.

Mrs Jacobson added: “Since taking up post as the Interim Headteacher in September 2013, I have been wholly focused on leading the School to become the school of first choice for the local community, parents and students.”

“Of course there is a lot of work to be done to ensure this is achieved and make the significant improvements needed to move the school out of special measures.”

She added: “As with all consultations there were differing opinions. However the results show that there was an overwhelming majority vote for change.”

“This is an exciting and proactive approach to the changes happening at The Wye Valley.”

The uniform and name changes appear to represent a fresh start for the school which has seen 22 members of staff leave since their Ofsted inspection in 2013.

Mrs Jacobson said: “The next step is to invite into school the parents who expressed an interest in being part of the Parent Focus group. There will also be a Student Focus group. The aim of these groups is to consider the finer details around the changes.

“With regards to the timings for the change: the name change will be on conversion to academy and the uniform change will not be before September.

What do you think of the proposed changes to The Wye Valley School? Tell us your views by emailing andrew.colley@london.newsquest.co.uk

Comments (27)

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12:19pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Loobylou31 says...

This article has told me more than the school has,the changes are at parents cost which did not get my vote and I don't really see how changing the colour of a uniform and a name change is going to improve the children's education,teaching is poor and this school has failed my child!!
This article has told me more than the school has,the changes are at parents cost which did not get my vote and I don't really see how changing the colour of a uniform and a name change is going to improve the children's education,teaching is poor and this school has failed my child!! Loobylou31
  • Score: 26

4:21pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Marmite XO says...

You can't polish a turd.
You can't polish a turd. Marmite XO
  • Score: 20

5:03pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Loobylou31 says...

You got that right!
You got that right! Loobylou31
  • Score: 8

10:49pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

It is not the school - it is the system - while there is 'selection' schools that change their names at intervals will always be good enough for 11+ 'failures'.

People like the BCC Education Department think 'You can't polish a turd' is a profoundly insightful comment about the sort of child who goes to Secondary Moderns - sorry 'Upper schools' - there is no point in worrying about their education - they are probably only going to be factory fodder.

(I am sincerely sorry you feel (quite correctly I think) that your child has been let down.)
It is not the school - it is the system - while there is 'selection' schools that change their names at intervals will always be good enough for 11+ 'failures'. People like the BCC Education Department think 'You can't polish a turd' is a profoundly insightful comment about the sort of child who goes to Secondary Moderns - sorry 'Upper schools' - there is no point in worrying about their education - they are probably only going to be factory fodder. (I am sincerely sorry you feel (quite correctly I think) that your child has been let down.) Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: -2

10:54pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

This school used to be called 'Deyncourt Secondary Modern'- after a local man who came over with William the Conqueror and had a local manor named after him.


Why not call it 'Appleyard Secondary Modern' after the local Cabinet Member of Bucks County Council for Education, who was chairman of the governors while it was getting to this state.

When it fails again then we can go back to Deyncourt and then we will alreadyhave two ready-established names to recycle next time it requires special measures.
This school used to be called 'Deyncourt Secondary Modern'- after a local man who came over with William the Conqueror and had a local manor named after him. Why not call it 'Appleyard Secondary Modern' after the local Cabinet Member of Bucks County Council for Education, who was chairman of the governors while it was getting to this state. When it fails again then we can go back to Deyncourt and then we will alreadyhave two ready-established names to recycle next time it requires special measures. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 2

11:03pm Sun 27 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

Undercover Euro Yob wrote:
It is not the school - it is the system - while there is 'selection' schools that change their names at intervals will always be good enough for 11+ 'failures'.

People like the BCC Education Department think 'You can't polish a turd' is a profoundly insightful comment about the sort of child who goes to Secondary Moderns - sorry 'Upper schools' - there is no point in worrying about their education - they are probably only going to be factory fodder.

(I am sincerely sorry you feel (quite correctly I think) that your child has been let down.)
BTW - never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks that changes its name - particularly more than once.

In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year.
[quote][p][bold]Undercover Euro Yob[/bold] wrote: It is not the school - it is the system - while there is 'selection' schools that change their names at intervals will always be good enough for 11+ 'failures'. People like the BCC Education Department think 'You can't polish a turd' is a profoundly insightful comment about the sort of child who goes to Secondary Moderns - sorry 'Upper schools' - there is no point in worrying about their education - they are probably only going to be factory fodder. (I am sincerely sorry you feel (quite correctly I think) that your child has been let down.)[/p][/quote]BTW - never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks that changes its name - particularly more than once. In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 2

6:19am Mon 28 Apr 14

Dad of 6 says...

This school has failed my child so far off the scale that it's obscene - BUT, only since it's gone into Special Measures. The disruption and damage it's caused to my child's progression for the past 15 months is, in my opinion, unforgivable. I've attended every meeting that's been held by the IEB, and nothing has made me change my mind about this school, infact it's just frustrated me even more.
A portion of the '22' staff that have left, although that number has since risen and will drastically rise over the coming months, left because they were treated appallingly, others obviously weren't up to the task. Yet, Ofsted slap a sanction on them by telling them they can't employ Newly Qualified Teachers - so what do they do?, employ Australian and Irish teaching staff. I can only deduce from this that they've found a loophole and the sanction only applied to English teaching staff!!, but there's every chance I'm off the mark here - just a gut feeling.
What beggars belief is once the school converts to an Academy it's automatically taken out of Special Measures - no mention of that anywhere on the letters home or on the article.....new uniform, new name, academy status - but the same failing school.
Incidentally - the article written by the BFP is almost word for word from a parents letter I've received from the school...
This school has failed my child so far off the scale that it's obscene - BUT, only since it's gone into Special Measures. The disruption and damage it's caused to my child's progression for the past 15 months is, in my opinion, unforgivable. I've attended every meeting that's been held by the IEB, and nothing has made me change my mind about this school, infact it's just frustrated me even more. A portion of the '22' staff that have left, although that number has since risen and will drastically rise over the coming months, left because they were treated appallingly, others obviously weren't up to the task. Yet, Ofsted slap a sanction on them by telling them they can't employ Newly Qualified Teachers - so what do they do?, employ Australian and Irish teaching staff. I can only deduce from this that they've found a loophole and the sanction only applied to English teaching staff!!, but there's every chance I'm off the mark here - just a gut feeling. What beggars belief is once the school converts to an Academy it's automatically taken out of Special Measures - no mention of that anywhere on the letters home or on the article.....new uniform, new name, academy status - but the same failing school. Incidentally - the article written by the BFP is almost word for word from a parents letter I've received from the school... Dad of 6
  • Score: 12

9:39am Mon 28 Apr 14

BucksComment says...

Blame Gove for creating a system where the only option for a school that needs help is to take it out of the system that could support it.
Blame Gove for creating a system where the only option for a school that needs help is to take it out of the system that could support it. BucksComment
  • Score: 6

9:42am Mon 28 Apr 14

abucks says...

Undercover Euro Yob - I am hoping your comments were just trying (and failing) to be clever. Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows that the Grammar Schools do not necessarily provide each child with an appropriate education for them and children often struggle, put up with poor teaching and bullying like any other school. Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools. We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results. The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school.
Undercover Euro Yob - I am hoping your comments were just trying (and failing) to be clever. Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows that the Grammar Schools do not necessarily provide each child with an appropriate education for them and children often struggle, put up with poor teaching and bullying like any other school. Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools. We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results. The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school. abucks
  • Score: 13

12:36pm Mon 28 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

abucks wrote:
Undercover Euro Yob - I am hoping your comments were just trying (and failing) to be clever. Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows that the Grammar Schools do not necessarily provide each child with an appropriate education for them and children often struggle, put up with poor teaching and bullying like any other school. Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools. We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results. The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school.
My quotes about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools.

If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP? Also why do you think that the latest figures we have suggest almost half of grammar school pupils come from out of county, and why do so many children catch the train in Bourne End to go to comprehensive schools in Berks and avoid our Secondary Modern schools?

''Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools."

I take it you mean Secondary Modern Schools by this heart warming stuff and if I disagree with you I will be in danger of being a heartless **** spitting on the noble self-effacing Secondary Modern teachers - they do a 'very good job' in circumstances made very difficult by 'selection'. Why do you say secondary schools have each extreme of talent - are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns? I thought the whole rationale for 'selection' was that it selected and cultivated the most talented and the rest could do the best they could. Secondary Moderns have a substantial majority who are at the lower end of the spectrum of talent (generally speaking) and are expected to give them a lower end curriculum. (Compare school web pages to see this.)

'We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results.'

Not as good as grammar schools - they are designed to be an inferior part of the system - that is why Val Letheren and the attainment gap people are only going through the motions.

The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school.

What does 'the facilities ... is genuine' mean? but GOD! Is this heartwarming or not? I'd better not argue with you on this one too then - as I might be a heartless **** spitting on the genuine facilities and dedication of good people. If you admire these teachers so much I suggest you give them a better system to work in then instead of polarising expectations.
[quote][p][bold]abucks[/bold] wrote: Undercover Euro Yob - I am hoping your comments were just trying (and failing) to be clever. Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows that the Grammar Schools do not necessarily provide each child with an appropriate education for them and children often struggle, put up with poor teaching and bullying like any other school. Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools. We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results. The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school.[/p][/quote]My quotes about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools. If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP? Also why do you think that the latest figures we have suggest almost half of grammar school pupils come from out of county, and why do so many children catch the train in Bourne End to go to comprehensive schools in Berks and avoid our Secondary Modern schools? [italic] ''Many secondary schools within Bucks do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, they have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability and the stigma of not being Grammar Schools."[/italic] I take it you mean Secondary Modern Schools by this heart warming stuff and if I disagree with you I will be in danger of being a heartless **** spitting on the noble self-effacing Secondary Modern teachers - they do a 'very good job' in circumstances made very difficult by 'selection'. Why do you say secondary schools have each extreme of talent - are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns? I thought the whole rationale for 'selection' was that it selected and cultivated the most talented and the rest could do the best they could. Secondary Moderns have a substantial majority who are at the lower end of the spectrum of talent (generally speaking) and are expected to give them a lower end curriculum. (Compare school web pages to see this.) [italic] 'We all know children who come out of them with extremely good results.'[/italic] Not as good as grammar schools - they are designed to be an inferior part of the system - that is why Val Letheren and the attainment gap people are only going through the motions. [italic] The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine and during the holidays you will find the staff in school providing revision classes as they do after school. [/italic] What does 'the facilities ... is genuine' [italic] mean?[/italic] but GOD! Is this heartwarming or not? I'd better not argue with you on this one too then - as I might be a heartless **** spitting on the genuine facilities and dedication of good people. If you admire these teachers so much I suggest you give them a better system to work in then instead of polarising expectations. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: -4

2:24pm Mon 28 Apr 14

abucks says...

Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county.

'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal.

An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher.

'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year.

re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!!

By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark.

i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay.

The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.
Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county. 'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal. An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher. 'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year. re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!! By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark. i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay. The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest. abucks
  • Score: 9

2:48pm Mon 28 Apr 14

MunsterX says...

Marmite XO wrote:
You can't polish a turd.
You can roll it in glitter though...
[quote][p][bold]Marmite XO[/bold] wrote: You can't polish a turd.[/p][/quote]You can roll it in glitter though... MunsterX
  • Score: -2

7:07pm Mon 28 Apr 14

mistamina says...

We moved to Bucks with our children because the Council said Bucks had the best attainment!
The quote from abucks ''The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.''.
Is that true?
We moved to Bucks with our children because the Council said Bucks had the best attainment! The quote from abucks ''The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.''. Is that true? mistamina
  • Score: 2

7:10pm Mon 28 Apr 14

mistamina says...

MunsterX wrote:
Marmite XO wrote:
You can't polish a turd.
You can roll it in glitter though...
We may have stepped into your glittering stuff.
[quote][p][bold]MunsterX[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Marmite XO[/bold] wrote: You can't polish a turd.[/p][/quote]You can roll it in glitter though...[/p][/quote]We may have stepped into your glittering stuff. mistamina
  • Score: 2

10:28pm Mon 28 Apr 14

abucks says...

mistamina - my point about the selection not separating out the bright is true, due to the fact that so many children are in the Grammar Schools due to having tutoring ++++ these children struggle and need more tutoring to get through to GCSE etc. It is the head teachers of the Grammar Schools who have pushed through the changes to the 11+ in an attempt to make it tutor proof - they have been very open about this. Also if you speak to any head teachers of primary schools they will tell you that the children that 'get through' the 11+ are not the creme de la creme. However, the 11+ is not the not the holy grail - it is held up as the only way for your child to get a good education but there are many children in many schools doing well. Obviously this is not the case for all children in all schools but it is for many. I don't know how old your children are but they can attain and achieve in many of the schools in bucks.
.
mistamina - my point about the selection not separating out the bright is true, due to the fact that so many children are in the Grammar Schools due to having tutoring ++++ these children struggle and need more tutoring to get through to GCSE etc. It is the head teachers of the Grammar Schools who have pushed through the changes to the 11+ in an attempt to make it tutor proof - they have been very open about this. Also if you speak to any head teachers of primary schools they will tell you that the children that 'get through' the 11+ are not the creme de la creme. However, the 11+ is not the not the holy grail - it is held up as the only way for your child to get a good education but there are many children in many schools doing well. Obviously this is not the case for all children in all schools but it is for many. I don't know how old your children are but they can attain and achieve in many of the schools in bucks. . abucks
  • Score: 3

2:28pm Tue 29 Apr 14

mistamina says...

Thanks.
Thanks. mistamina
  • Score: 0

6:48pm Tue 29 Apr 14

MunsterX says...

abucks wrote:
mistamina - my point about the selection not separating out the bright is true, due to the fact that so many children are in the Grammar Schools due to having tutoring ++++ these children struggle and need more tutoring to get through to GCSE etc. It is the head teachers of the Grammar Schools who have pushed through the changes to the 11+ in an attempt to make it tutor proof - they have been very open about this. Also if you speak to any head teachers of primary schools they will tell you that the children that 'get through' the 11+ are not the creme de la creme. However, the 11+ is not the not the holy grail - it is held up as the only way for your child to get a good education but there are many children in many schools doing well. Obviously this is not the case for all children in all schools but it is for many. I don't know how old your children are but they can attain and achieve in many of the schools in bucks.
.
Don't let schools and the State judge your kids, you are the master of their destiny.

Teach the kids a couple of languages, if you can't, then teach yourself first. If you are really hacked off with the UK system then plan a move abroad for twelve months time, soak your brain in the language every night when you are home from work, it's all free on youtube these days. Lead your family and don't be taken in by the education system.

Learning is life long, not just a bunch of A grades in your teens.
[quote][p][bold]abucks[/bold] wrote: mistamina - my point about the selection not separating out the bright is true, due to the fact that so many children are in the Grammar Schools due to having tutoring ++++ these children struggle and need more tutoring to get through to GCSE etc. It is the head teachers of the Grammar Schools who have pushed through the changes to the 11+ in an attempt to make it tutor proof - they have been very open about this. Also if you speak to any head teachers of primary schools they will tell you that the children that 'get through' the 11+ are not the creme de la creme. However, the 11+ is not the not the holy grail - it is held up as the only way for your child to get a good education but there are many children in many schools doing well. Obviously this is not the case for all children in all schools but it is for many. I don't know how old your children are but they can attain and achieve in many of the schools in bucks. .[/p][/quote]Don't let schools and the State judge your kids, you are the master of their destiny. Teach the kids a couple of languages, if you can't, then teach yourself first. If you are really hacked off with the UK system then plan a move abroad for twelve months time, soak your brain in the language every night when you are home from work, it's all free on youtube these days. Lead your family and don't be taken in by the education system. Learning is life long, not just a bunch of A grades in your teens. MunsterX
  • Score: 2

11:01pm Tue 29 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

abucks wrote:
Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county.

'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal.

An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher.

'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year.

re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!!

By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark.

i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay.

The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.
I agree with a lot of what you say however I am not completely sure what point you are trying to make - sometimes I think this is part of the ageing process but on this occasion I will give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that I suspect strongly you haven’t got a firm grasp on what point you are trying to make either.
In your letter at 9.42 you affected a massive authority ‘Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows …’ in reply to earlier comments of mine in which I had pointed out the obvious fact that schools like Wye Valley or Highcrest have been part of the failing Secondary Modern part of our selective system, and name-changes like these are part of an image change and nothing more substantial in the long term. (Some schools that have been in special measures have not changed their names but my point about name-changing remains the same.)
IN reply you paraphrased the pro-selection dross about: ‘there’s an awful lot of jolly good schools of all sorts in Bucks- anyway not all the grammar schools are that good and some the Secondary moderns are. ’
We both know this is pure BS - when was a grammar school last in special measures and why do out-of-county children get shuttled in, or in-county children get shuttled out, of Bucks depending on whether or not they have passed the 11+? The grammar schools are beneficiaries of hot housing and the secondary moderns of being left out in the cold.
In order to give an obvious indication of the unsoundness of what you had said I commented: If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?
In your reply you make the weak (in my opinion) answer:
As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county.

Oh thanks - then what point were you trying to make - and can you tell us which schools mainly attract your negative comments and which the positive?
You also said:
This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of .
This too is pure BS once again, and for the same reasons as above. (Although I liked the air of grave judiciousness with which you said ‘due partly to the myths …’ tell us about the rest of the reasons - the ones that are not mythical in origin.)
I am not sure what point you are trying to make when you make the strange comment: I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years)
Unlike yourself apparently - I have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks - I havemet quite a few over the years - one a very intelligent young woman - went on to Oxford.
You continue: … and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal.
What is the point of all that - what are your experiences supposed to prove?

An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher.

What is the significance of the interesting study?

'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!!
Fair enough - that was the logical conclusion from what you said and it is one I agree with - I was not sure you were intending to make it.

the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year.

All that tends to support what you said previously and I am not surprised by it.

re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!!

The point I was making was that grammar schools cream off the top layer in terms of IQ (not very accurately or consistently) and give them superior facilities, aspirations, curriculum and teaching staff as part of a system that imposes low expectations on Secondary Modern pupils. (In any case you apparently feel secondary moderns do have ‘the lower end of attainment’ so why do you say elsewhere: Many secondary schools … have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability … ?

By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark.
Thank you I am already aware of the meaning of the word ‘facilities’ - what I asked you was what the word meant in the sentence: - you can have false dedication but not false facilities they are there and genuine or they are not - and I still don’t see how that conforms with the ‘explanation’ you gave: ‘I mean just that.’


i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you.
It is not in the slightest offensive to me - I use it on a regular basis to describe the mock-admiring statements of people like Mike Appleyard when he is praising the dedication of teachers and pupils and doesn’t expect you to reply to him in case you look like a hard hearted bast ard. You appeared to be doing the same thing when you invoked ‘genuine dedication’ - did you really work out in your head what you were trying to say in the sentence I quoted back at you?

I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay.

Yawn - irrelevant and then more heartwarming stuff (‘hard working, give up their free time’ - if it’s true then what is the point in telling us?).
The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.
This suggests to me strongly that you have missed the point - my first posts - as I said earlier -
… about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools.
(See also:
In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year. )
All my interests in this thread have been concerned with the irrational iniquity of ‘selection’ not sincerity, dedication or facilities.

PS good luck to your teenage boys!
[quote][p][bold]abucks[/bold] wrote: Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county. 'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal. An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher. 'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year. re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!! By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark. i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay. The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.[/p][/quote]I agree with a lot of what you say however I am not completely sure what point you are trying to make - sometimes I think this is part of the ageing process but on this occasion I will give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that I suspect strongly you haven’t got a firm grasp on what point you are trying to make either. In your letter at 9.42 you affected a massive authority ‘Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows …’ in reply to earlier comments of mine in which I had pointed out the obvious fact that schools like Wye Valley or Highcrest have been part of the failing Secondary Modern part of our selective system, and name-changes like these are part of an image change and nothing more substantial in the long term. (Some schools that have been in special measures have not changed their names but my point about name-changing remains the same.) IN reply you paraphrased the pro-selection dross about: ‘there’s an awful lot of jolly good schools of [italic] all [/italic] sorts in Bucks- anyway not all the grammar schools are that good and some the Secondary moderns [italic] are. [/italic]’ We both know this is pure BS - when was a grammar school last in special measures and why do out-of-county children get shuttled in, or in-county children get shuttled out, of Bucks depending on whether or not they have passed the 11+? The grammar schools are beneficiaries of hot housing and the secondary moderns of being left out in the cold. In order to give an obvious indication of the unsoundness of what you had said I commented: [italic] If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP? [/italic] In your reply you make the weak (in my opinion) answer: As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county. [/italic] Oh thanks - then what point [italic] were [/italic] you trying to make - and can you tell us which schools mainly attract your negative comments and which the positive? You also said: This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . This too is pure BS once again, and for the same reasons as above. (Although I liked the air of grave judiciousness with which you said ‘due partly to the myths …’ tell us about the rest of the reasons - the ones that are not mythical in origin.) I am not sure what point you are trying to make when you make the strange comment: [italic] I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) [/italic] Unlike yourself apparently - I have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks - I [italic] have[/italic]met quite a few over the years - one a very intelligent young woman - went on to Oxford. You continue: [italic] … and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal. [/italic] What is the point of all that - what are your experiences supposed to prove? [italic] An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher. [/italic] What is the significance of the interesting study? [italic] 'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! [/italic] Fair enough - that was the logical conclusion from what you said and it is one I agree with - I was not sure you were intending to make it. [italic] the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year. [/italic] All that tends to support what you said previously and I am not surprised by it. [italic] re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!! [/italic] The point I was making was that grammar schools cream off the top layer in terms of IQ (not very accurately or consistently) and give them superior facilities, aspirations, curriculum and teaching staff as part of a system that imposes low expectations on Secondary Modern pupils. (In any case you apparently feel secondary moderns [italic] do [/italic] have ‘the lower end of attainment’ so why do you say elsewhere: [italic] Many secondary schools … have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability … [/italic]? [italic] By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark. [/italic] Thank you I am already aware of the meaning of the word ‘facilities’ - what I asked you was what the word meant in the sentence: [italic’ The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine …’ [/italic]- you can have false dedication but not false facilities they are there and genuine or they are not - and I still don’t see how that conforms with the ‘explanation’ you gave: ‘I mean just that.’ [italic] i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. [/italic] It is not in the slightest offensive to me - I use it on a regular basis to describe the mock-admiring statements of people like Mike Appleyard when he is praising the dedication of teachers and pupils and doesn’t expect you to reply to him in case you look like a hard hearted bast ard. You appeared to be doing the same thing when you invoked ‘genuine dedication’ - did you really work out in your head what you were trying to [italic] say[/italic] in the sentence I quoted back at you? [italic] I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay. [/italic] Yawn - irrelevant and then more heartwarming stuff (‘hard working, give up their free time’ - if it’s true then what is the point in telling us?). [italic] The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest. [/italic] This suggests to me strongly that you have missed the point - my first posts - as I said earlier - [italic] … about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools. [/italic] (See also: [italic] In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year. [/italic]) All my interests in this thread have been concerned with the irrational iniquity of ‘selection’ not sincerity, dedication or facilities. PS good luck to your teenage boys! Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 2

11:04pm Tue 29 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

And do lay off the massive authority - elsewhere on this site here you say ‘this is nothing new’ or something similar - Captain Mainwaring was given lines like that for humorous effect.
And [italic]do [/italic] lay off the massive authority - elsewhere on this site here you say ‘this is nothing new’ or something similar - Captain Mainwaring was given lines like that for humorous effect. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 1

11:10pm Tue 29 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

abucks wrote:
Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county.

'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal.

An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher.

'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year.

re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!!

By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark.

i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay.

The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.
I agree with a lot of what you say however I am not completely sure what point you are trying to make - sometimes I think this is part of the ageing process but on this occasion I will give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that I suspect strongly you haven’t got a firm grasp on what point you are trying to make either.
In your letter at 9.42 you affected a massive authority ‘Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows …’ in reply to earlier comments of mine in which I had pointed out the obvious fact that schools like Wye Valley or Highcrest have been part of the failing Secondary Modern part of our selective system, and name-changes like these are part of an image change and nothing more substantial in the long term. (Some schools that have been in special measures have not changed their names but my point about name-changing remains the same.)
IN reply you paraphrased the pro-selection dross about: ‘there’s an awful lot of jolly good schools of all sorts in Bucks- anyway not all the grammar schools are that good and some the Secondary moderns are. ’
We both know this is pure BS - when was a grammar school last in special measures and why do out-of-county children get shuttled in, or in-county children get shuttled out, of Bucks depending on whether or not they have passed the 11+? The grammar schools are beneficiaries of hot housing and the secondary moderns of being left out in the cold.
In order to give an obvious indication of the unsoundness of what you had said I commented: If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?
In your reply you make the weak (in my opinion) answer:
As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county.

Oh thanks - then what point were you trying to make - and can you tell us which schools mainly attract your negative comments and which the positive?
You also said:
This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of .
This too is pure BS once again, and for the same reasons as above. (Although I liked the air of grave judiciousness with which you said ‘due partly to the myths …’ tell us about the rest of the reasons - the ones that are not mythical in origin.)
I am not sure what point you are trying to make when you make the strange comment: I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years)
Unlike yourself apparently - I have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks - I havemet quite a few over the years - one a very intelligent young woman - went on to Oxford.
You continue: … and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal.
What is the point of all that - what are your experiences supposed to prove?

An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher.

What is the significance of the interesting study?

'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!!
Fair enough - that was the logical conclusion from what you said and it is one I agree with - I was not sure you were intending to make it.

the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year.

All that tends to support what you said previously and I am not surprised by it.

re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!!

The point I was making was that grammar schools cream off the top layer in terms of IQ (not very accurately or consistently) and give them superior facilities, aspirations, curriculum and teaching staff as part of a system that imposes low expectations on Secondary Modern pupils. (In any case you apparently feel secondary moderns do have ‘the lower end of attainment’ so why do you say elsewhere: Many secondary schools … have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability … ?

By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark.
Thank you I am already aware of the meaning of the word ‘facilities’ - what I asked you was what the word meant in the sentence: - you can have false dedication but not false facilities they are there and genuine or they are not - and I still don’t see how that conforms with the ‘explanation’ you gave: ‘I mean just that.’


i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you.
It is not in the slightest offensive to me - I use it on a regular basis to describe the mock-admiring statements of people like Mike Appleyard when he is praising the dedication of teachers and pupils and doesn’t expect you to reply to him in case you look like a hard hearted bast ard. You appeared to be doing the same thing when you invoked ‘genuine dedication’ - did you really work out in your head what you were trying to say in the sentence I quoted back at you?

I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay.

Yawn - irrelevant and then more heartwarming stuff (‘hard working, give up their free time’ - if it’s true then what is the point in telling us?).
The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.
This suggests to me strongly that you have missed the point - my first posts - as I said earlier -
… about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools.
(See also:
In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year. )
All my interests in this thread have been concerned with the irrational iniquity of ‘selection’ not sincerity, dedication or facilities.

PS good luck to your teenage boys!
[quote][p][bold]abucks[/bold] wrote: Undercover Euro Yob - I can only conclude that you have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks. As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county. 'If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP?' -This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal. An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher. 'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year. re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!! By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark. i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay. The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest.[/p][/quote]I agree with a lot of what you say however I am not completely sure what point you are trying to make - sometimes I think this is part of the ageing process but on this occasion I will give myself the benefit of the doubt and say that I suspect strongly you haven’t got a firm grasp on what point you are trying to make either. In your letter at 9.42 you affected a massive authority ‘Anyone within the system as a parent or staff knows …’ in reply to earlier comments of mine in which I had pointed out the obvious fact that schools like Wye Valley or Highcrest have been part of the failing Secondary Modern part of our selective system, and name-changes like these are part of an image change and nothing more substantial in the long term. (Some schools that have been in special measures have not changed their names but my point about name-changing remains the same.) IN reply you paraphrased the pro-selection dross about: ‘there’s an awful lot of jolly good schools of [italic] all [/italic] sorts in Bucks- anyway not all the grammar schools are that good and some the Secondary moderns [italic] are. [/italic]’ We both know this is pure BS - when was a grammar school last in special measures and why do out-of-county children get shuttled in, or in-county children get shuttled out, of Bucks depending on whether or not they have passed the 11+? The grammar schools are beneficiaries of hot housing and the secondary moderns of being left out in the cold. In order to give an obvious indication of the unsoundness of what you had said I commented: [italic] If you think grammar schools are not that good then why do tuition agencies advertise their services for the 11+ in the online BFP? [/italic] In your reply you make the weak (in my opinion) answer: As with any system there are positives and negatives so my comments are not about EVERY school or EVERY teacher in the county. [/italic] Oh thanks - then what point [italic] were [/italic] you trying to make - and can you tell us which schools mainly attract your negative comments and which the positive? You also said: This is due partly to the myths about the only good schools being Grammar Schools and parents frankly not wishing their little darlings to have to mix with the oiks that they consider the secondary schools to be full of . This too is pure BS once again, and for the same reasons as above. (Although I liked the air of grave judiciousness with which you said ‘due partly to the myths …’ tell us about the rest of the reasons - the ones that are not mythical in origin.) I am not sure what point you are trying to make when you make the strange comment: [italic] I have never met a child who has passed the 11+ without extensive tuition (often for 2/3 years) [/italic] Unlike yourself apparently - I have very little personal experience of the reality of the education system in Bucks - I [italic] have[/italic]met quite a few over the years - one a very intelligent young woman - went on to Oxford. You continue: [italic] … and know plenty who have plodded along in the middle groups of primary school but been coached for years to attain the 11+. I have known several children - bright but whose parents couldn't or were not interested enough to provide coaching who miss the 121 by a small amount but even with 120 in both tests have not been given admittance at appeal. [/italic] What is the point of all that - what are your experiences supposed to prove? [italic] An interesting study is the SATS results (in which most children have a level playing field -although coaching rears its ugly head again here) and compare those of the children in state education passing the tests with those going to secondary school, all level 5s and 6s they are not - many go with level 4 or below with and children enter the secondary system with higher. [/italic] What is the significance of the interesting study? [italic] 'are you saying highly talented children fail the 11+ and go to Secondary Moderns?' - eerrrr yes!! [/italic] Fair enough - that was the logical conclusion from what you said and it is one I agree with - I was not sure you were intending to make it. [italic] the 11+ until 2013 in particular was almost entirely verbal reasoning and many children who excelled at maths and science did not pass. My son is forecast to get a mixture of As and A+ at secondary school this summer, pausing maybe for a B in English. He has been offered a place at grammar school for the 6th form - however he has obviously got to the standard they need at a secondary school - I know several boys at the grammar schools that will not and won't be kept on. He is very uncertain whether to take up this place as he is happy with the teaching etc that he has already. He is by no means the brightest pupil in his year. [/italic] All that tends to support what you said previously and I am not surprised by it. [italic] re results - you say 'Not as good as grammar schools' - duh! they have not got the lower end of attainment as well as the higher so - obviously!!!! [/italic] The point I was making was that grammar schools cream off the top layer in terms of IQ (not very accurately or consistently) and give them superior facilities, aspirations, curriculum and teaching staff as part of a system that imposes low expectations on Secondary Modern pupils. (In any case you apparently feel secondary moderns [italic] do [/italic] have ‘the lower end of attainment’ so why do you say elsewhere: [italic] Many secondary schools … have to provide an education for children from each extreme of ability … [/italic]? [italic] By facilities I mean just that - why don't you go on some open days and see the computer suites, sports facilities etc - when we looked round the comparison was stark. [/italic] Thank you I am already aware of the meaning of the word ‘facilities’ - what I asked you was what the word meant in the sentence: [italic’ The facilities and dedication of the staff that I have encountered is genuine …’ [/italic]- you can have false dedication but not false facilities they are there and genuine or they are not - and I still don’t see how that conforms with the ‘explanation’ you gave: ‘I mean just that.’ [italic] i don't know why the word 'heartwarming' is so offensive to you. [/italic] It is not in the slightest offensive to me - I use it on a regular basis to describe the mock-admiring statements of people like Mike Appleyard when he is praising the dedication of teachers and pupils and doesn’t expect you to reply to him in case you look like a hard hearted bast ard. You appeared to be doing the same thing when you invoked ‘genuine dedication’ - did you really work out in your head what you were trying to [italic] say[/italic] in the sentence I quoted back at you? [italic] I have 2 teenage boys and work with very small children - I do not have rose coloured spectacles where children, teachers or the education system is concerned. What I see is from experience, mine and other parents in the secondary, grammar and private systems - the teachers who teach my boys are for the most part, hard working, give up their free time for extra teaching, sport, communication with parents etc. They go out of their way to keep parents informed of their child's progress. The revision classes etc are free and therefore give all children equal access unlike the grammar schools where you have to pay. [/italic] Yawn - irrelevant and then more heartwarming stuff (‘hard working, give up their free time’ - if it’s true then what is the point in telling us?). [italic] The whole idea of selection is another argument but here in Bucks it doesn't even do what it is designed to do - ie separate the extremely bright the rest. [/italic] This suggests to me strongly that you have missed the point - my first posts - as I said earlier - [italic] … about Secondary Modern schools that change their name regularly were meant with the utmost seriousness and intended to make parents and ratepayers consider the musical chairs system in this county where a Secondary Modern school fails, goes into special measures, 'courageously' turns itself round and often changes its name before going back on course for failure. This never happens with grammar schools. [/italic] (See also: [italic] In fact never send your child to a secondary school in Bucks unless it is a grammar school - don't trust the eleven-plus - it changes from year to year. [/italic]) All my interests in this thread have been concerned with the irrational iniquity of ‘selection’ not sincerity, dedication or facilities. PS good luck to your teenage boys! Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 3

11:12pm Tue 29 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

Unfortunately the BFP italics facility isn't working on that (maybe it was too long!) - that's why I posted it twice - but it didn't work second time either so it is a lot less readable than I would like.
Unfortunately the BFP italics facility isn't working on that (maybe it was too long!) - that's why I posted it twice - but it didn't work second time either so it is a lot less readable than I would like. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: -2

11:54pm Tue 29 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

Undercover Euro Yob wrote:
Unfortunately the BFP italics facility isn't working on that (maybe it was too long!) - that's why I posted it twice - but it didn't work second time either so it is a lot less readable than I would like.
BFP has also removed some but not all my post that was in italics - what I have on Word contains phrases that are missing from what appears above.

Bugger it!
[quote][p][bold]Undercover Euro Yob[/bold] wrote: Unfortunately the BFP italics facility isn't working on that (maybe it was too long!) - that's why I posted it twice - but it didn't work second time either so it is a lot less readable than I would like.[/p][/quote]BFP has also removed some but not all my post that was in italics - what I have on Word contains phrases that are missing from what appears above. Bugger it! Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: -2

12:42am Wed 30 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

Try again tomorrow
Try again tomorrow Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: 0

6:02pm Wed 30 Apr 14

abucks says...

*Undercover Euro Yob - I am sorry but it is not possible for me to justify the time it would take me to read your tirades above in order to reply to you
*Undercover Euro Yob - I am sorry but it is not possible for me to justify the time it would take me to read your tirades above in order to reply to you abucks
  • Score: 0

10:43pm Wed 30 Apr 14

Undercover Euro Yob says...

abucks wrote:
*Undercover Euro Yob - I am sorry but it is not possible for me to justify the time it would take me to read your tirades above in order to reply to you
If you said you hadn't the time to type a reply I could understand - but just to read it? You've intervened and produced quite long missives yourself in a tone of massive superiority that seem to be difficult to make sense of and I've replied to them.
[quote][p][bold]abucks[/bold] wrote: *Undercover Euro Yob - I am sorry but it is not possible for me to justify the time it would take me to read your tirades above in order to reply to you[/p][/quote]If you said you hadn't the time to [italic] type[/italic] a reply I could understand - but just to [italic] read [/italic] it? You've intervened and produced quite long missives yourself in a tone of massive superiority that seem to be difficult to make sense of and I've replied to them. Undercover Euro Yob
  • Score: -1

12:39pm Sat 3 May 14

Marlow Mum says...

Dad of 6 wrote:
This school has failed my child so far off the scale that it's obscene - BUT, only since it's gone into Special Measures. The disruption and damage it's caused to my child's progression for the past 15 months is, in my opinion, unforgivable. I've attended every meeting that's been held by the IEB, and nothing has made me change my mind about this school, infact it's just frustrated me even more.
A portion of the '22' staff that have left, although that number has since risen and will drastically rise over the coming months, left because they were treated appallingly, others obviously weren't up to the task. Yet, Ofsted slap a sanction on them by telling them they can't employ Newly Qualified Teachers - so what do they do?, employ Australian and Irish teaching staff. I can only deduce from this that they've found a loophole and the sanction only applied to English teaching staff!!, but there's every chance I'm off the mark here - just a gut feeling.
What beggars belief is once the school converts to an Academy it's automatically taken out of Special Measures - no mention of that anywhere on the letters home or on the article.....new uniform, new name, academy status - but the same failing school.
Incidentally - the article written by the BFP is almost word for word from a parents letter I've received from the school...
Dad of 6, you are 100% correct. There were many excellent and devoted teachers that were driven out of the school by the new 'team'. And yes, they were - in many cases - treated absolutely appallingly.
I am also almost certain that your theory re the NQT sanction only being applied to UK-teachers is correct. I suggest you raise this issue with the School and see what they have to see.
Good luck!
[quote][p][bold]Dad of 6[/bold] wrote: This school has failed my child so far off the scale that it's obscene - BUT, only since it's gone into Special Measures. The disruption and damage it's caused to my child's progression for the past 15 months is, in my opinion, unforgivable. I've attended every meeting that's been held by the IEB, and nothing has made me change my mind about this school, infact it's just frustrated me even more. A portion of the '22' staff that have left, although that number has since risen and will drastically rise over the coming months, left because they were treated appallingly, others obviously weren't up to the task. Yet, Ofsted slap a sanction on them by telling them they can't employ Newly Qualified Teachers - so what do they do?, employ Australian and Irish teaching staff. I can only deduce from this that they've found a loophole and the sanction only applied to English teaching staff!!, but there's every chance I'm off the mark here - just a gut feeling. What beggars belief is once the school converts to an Academy it's automatically taken out of Special Measures - no mention of that anywhere on the letters home or on the article.....new uniform, new name, academy status - but the same failing school. Incidentally - the article written by the BFP is almost word for word from a parents letter I've received from the school...[/p][/quote]Dad of 6, you are 100% correct. There were many excellent and devoted teachers that were driven out of the school by the new 'team'. And yes, they were - in many cases - treated absolutely appallingly. I am also almost certain that your theory re the NQT sanction only being applied to UK-teachers is correct. I suggest you raise this issue with the School and see what they have to see. Good luck! Marlow Mum
  • Score: 2

12:45pm Sat 3 May 14

Marlow Mum says...

*say* (not see!)
*say* (not see!) Marlow Mum
  • Score: 0

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