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We won't reveal camera fines because some are switched off, Buckinghamshire bosses say


SPEED camera chiefs have refused to say how much money each device makes – because it would show which ones are switched off.

They refused a Freedom of Information Act request from The Bucks Free Press on the number of tickets issued and fines collected for each camera.

They also claimed it would make the county’s 51 fixed cameras a target for vandals.

This is despite the BFP previously winning a long-running battle to get figures for two cameras – and fines being released elsewhere in England and not being linked to attacks.

It comes as a council chief prepares to reach a decision on camera funding which could see some turned off for good. About £2m in fines were paid from 2007 to 2009.

Attorney General and Beaconsfield MP Dominic Grieve, the chief legal advisor to the Crown, hit out.

He said: “While I appreciate there may be a need not to show which ones are switched off, it would be able to show which speed cameras are collecting the most money.”

Wycombe MP Steve Baker said: “The information should certainly be released.

“We are entering a time when Government needs to be much more open and transparent.”

He said the issue of inactive cameras ‘approaches the question of road safety from the wrong direction’.

He said: “It supposes people will only behave themselves if they are under surveillance.

“We need to get to a situation where people behave themselves on the road because they want to behave themselves on the road.”

We asked for the number of Notice of Intended Prosecutions issued and paid for each camera, in 2007 to 2010. This included the county’s 64 mobile sites.

But the Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership’s Ellie Hynes said she was ‘not obliged’ to provide the figures as she said they were exempt under the act.

The information risked ‘increased speeding at sites where it is known that a camera is out of use’.

This would ‘expose sites that received no enforcement (often the case in Thames Valley) thereby encouraging speeding where there was no perceived risk of detection’.

She said: “Our own research shows that if a driver believes a camera unit is inactive; speeds at the site will increase.

“Increased speeds mean a higher risk of injury to road users and members of the public.”

And she said: “By releasing the individual camera sites in Buckinghamshire we would [be] effectively advertising to anti-speed camera vandals which cameras they should target.”

This would incur repair and surveillance costs, she said, and pointed to a 2007 News of the World article listing the 100 most busy cameras from available data.

One was hit by an arson attack and she said it is ‘strongly considered’ this was linked to the article.

The Bucks Free Press won a two-year battle with the partnership to get information about two speed cameras on Marlow Hill, High Wycombe, released under the Act.

We appealed to the Information Commissioner, who regulates use of the Act. He backed the partnership – but the BFP then won an appeal at the Information Tribunal.

The figures showed £1.2m worth of fines had been paid with more than 21,000 slapped with tickets between November 2002 and December 2006.

And other speed camera bodies have released figures – and three which disclosed the information within the last year did not link this to attacks.

There were no attacks since the Salford Advertiser published the ‘top 10 cameras’ in June, The Greater Manchester Casualty Reduction Partnership told The Free Press.

Sussex Safer Roads Partnership said there had been two ‘minor incidents’ since The Brighton Argus published figures in October but did not link them with the article.

Dorset Safety Camera Partnership said it released figures regularly in the ‘genuine public interest’ and to cut down on requests.

Spokesman Louise Edwards said: “It is considered that where cameras have been attacked in Dorset the offences against the public safety are being carried out by mindless thugs whenever they feel inclined to do so with no thought to the camera’s location or statistics.”

Buckinghamshire County Council transport boss Cllr Valerie Letheren is yet to announce her decision on its funding for the partnership.

Oxfordshire County Council voted last week to pull its funding, meaning all Oxon cameras were switched off on Sunday.

She has said Bucks is likely to cut funding and manage cameras itself, turning some off.

The TVSRP did, however, release the number of tickets paid in Buckinghamshire, 12,125 in 2009. Tickets are £60, meaning tickets were worth £727,500.

This means that between 2007 and 2010, the partnership was paid fines worth £2m.

But just 44 per cent of tickets issued were paid. Many are offered a ‘speed awareness course’ instead of points and fine.

The partnership recently hailed a fall in deaths and collisions in its ten-year lifetime, from 33 in 2000 to 23.

Those killed or seriously injured fell from 396 in 2000 to 242 in 2009. The total number of people involved in collisions fell from 2,884 to 1,960 from 2000.


Comments(26)

BigTommy says...
7:25am Tue 3 Aug 10

So what is the point of producing figures to showe how many people were speeding in an area covered by a camera.
~
Like them or not, they catch people who are breaking the speed limit in that area. If you don't want to get caught then don't speed!
~
So why all this high and mighty "we demand this under the freedom of infomation act" stuff from the Bucks Free Press. Does it matter? NO! But it makes the BFP look as if they are doing something important!
~
Surely they should be looking at things like the proposed waste of money building the new stadium ...... Ooops, I forgot. They like Steve Hayes and have consistently backed away from any proper investigative journalism.

ferrellcat says...
8:22am Tue 3 Aug 10

"This would expose sites that received no enforcement,therefor
e encouraging speeding where there was no perceived risk of detection"
A bit like sticking your cash cow cameras where there is no perceived risk of an accident too

sidthesexist says...
8:53am Tue 3 Aug 10

"Like them or not, they catch people who are breaking the speed limit in that area. If you don't want to get caught then don't speed!"



However they do not catch people who drive whilst drunk, drugged, half asleep.... hence it will always be better to have a road traffic officer than one of these useless machines

TheT0nemeister says...
9:04am Tue 3 Aug 10

I agree with the comments of ferrelcat on this, most of the cameras are cash cow cameras, they are placed where people are more likely to speed rather than statisically there are more accidents for example outside schools or busy road junctions. Just for an example of inconsistency the council have long had a zebra crossing at the bottom of Marlow hill, this is just off a very busy MINI Roundabout where you have two lanes of traffic going into it from all angles. As people are about to accelerate to go up Marlow hill they can suddenly be faced with people crossing, now with the fact you have your eye on the road and people coming around the roundabout this seems madness.

miccles says...
9:16am Tue 3 Aug 10

"They also claimed it would make the county’s 51 fixed cameras a target for vandals."


Lets face it, i wouldn't be surprised if alot of them are going to be vandalised now anyway.

and to be honest, in this instance it would serve them right.

Slimster says...
9:30am Tue 3 Aug 10

Bucks will surely follow Oxfordshire soon in turning off all these devices. Mrs Hynes your P45 is in the post, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

hondo says...
10:06am Tue 3 Aug 10

What else is exempt from FOI act? MPs expenses, speed fines, anything deemed by whomever cares to say so, commercially confidential.
This surely isn't about speed, it's about revenue.
Whatever happened to the principle of the Act?

iworld says...
10:36am Tue 3 Aug 10

While Speed cameras are annoying to most people and a pain. I do have mixed views - while i do agree that most speed cameras should be removed - I do think some should be taken down i.e. the one up Hamilton Hill going up it - what’s the point? Where cameras would be ideal situated is in areas of high risk areas where some lead foots drive recklessly near schools etc. I do think that support for cameras has been waning over the last few years and there demise in urban areas is soon (see Swindon)
Nowadays Motorways are getting clogged up with average speed cameras - so I think government money is going there - plus sophisticated cameras

Voyeur says...
12:22pm Tue 3 Aug 10

I always believed that some revenue raising cameras were switched off but the idea was that they kept changing the switched on and switched off ones to keep motorists on their toes.
.
It appears they have become lazy and kept some cameras permanently switched off, thereby causing their embarrasment.
.
However, they should feel comfortable telling people under the FOI Act what the revenue is from each camera.
.
Surely it is not beyond their wit to switch on some cameras that were previously switched off!

BEPS says...
12:23pm Tue 3 Aug 10

If you don't speed you will not get caught.

Good Life says...
12:25pm Tue 3 Aug 10

iworld wrote:
While Speed cameras are annoying to most people and a pain. I do have mixed views - while i do agree that most speed cameras should be removed - I do think some should be taken down i.e. the one up Hamilton Hill going up it - what’s the point? Where cameras would be ideal situated is in areas of high risk areas where some lead foots drive recklessly near schools etc. I do think that support for cameras has been waning over the last few years and there demise in urban areas is soon (see Swindon) Nowadays Motorways are getting clogged up with average speed cameras - so I think government money is going there - plus sophisticated cameras
Would love to know the average speed detection figures from the hamilton road camera located on a steep upward hill, I struggle up here in second or third gear in a car while vehicles come down the hill at a much more dangerous speed!

Voyeur says...
12:33pm Tue 3 Aug 10

@BEPS, Marlow - this issue is about the effectiveness of the revenue raising cameras, not whether individuals are speeding or not.
.
I note that when I completed the survey, only 28% of respondents agreed to keep revenue raising cameras switched on. 57% believed they should be switched off.

Slacker says...
12:35pm Tue 3 Aug 10

If people did not speed in the first place there would be no cash cow. Drive within the limits and what is the problem?

vocal local says...
12:39pm Tue 3 Aug 10

If you dont speed in the first place, it really doesnt matter how many cameras there are, or whether they are on or off......simples!

Malc London says...
1:52pm Tue 3 Aug 10

It is not simple enough to say "don't speed". Unless you are constantly checking the speedometer instead of looking at the road and potential hazzards, it's quite easy to go over a speed limit if that limit is set to or slightly below the ideal speed for the road.

I know of a case where someone after a few hours of driving was on a 4 lane motorway with little traffic and edged up to 75mph before the sat nav warned him and he was able to slow down. He is still hoping that the speed trap car on the bridge above wasn't aiming at him.

Most cameras are for revenue and not for safety, this is why they are not willing to let us have the figures.

Once they stopped getting the proceeds of the cash cows, they stopped using them.

Malc London says...
1:59pm Tue 3 Aug 10

The camera on the A413 at Chalfont St Peter was once cited as the "biggest earner" in fines. One proud police chief claimed how this showed that cameras were doing their job.

Surely, they would only be doing it's job if it generated no fines?

weyfarer says...
4:01pm Tue 3 Aug 10

Whilst some are pure revenue raisers having little to do with dangerous driving, some others are at accident blackspots. There should be one at the end of West Wyycombe Village where people keep getting killed and injured by cars going to fast. Admittedly that probably wouldn't have prevented the recent fatality where the driver was drunk.
It's a tough call.

john_b says...
5:07pm Tue 3 Aug 10

Dead cats in bags are far more effective than speed cameras - and are much cheaper to operate.

Plus ça change... says...
5:20pm Tue 3 Aug 10

... might use empty bags, john_b.

I'd be quite happy with a car that dropped its speed automatically as soon as I enter a speed restricted zone. Perfect.


s/w:
hello-hello-hello...

wayneo says...
5:42pm Tue 3 Aug 10

really? sure about that?

http://www.bucksfree
press.co.uk/news/816
5201.Speeding_charge
_dropped_due_to__fau
lty__camera/

http://news.sky.com/
skynews/Home/Strange
-News/Jeff-Buck-From
-Nottingham-Has-Been
-Sent-Two-Speeding-T
ickets-While-His-Car
-Was-Parked/Article/
201001415533342

http://www.pepipoo.c
om/Inaccurate_speed_
cameras.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/insideout/southwest
/series7/speed-camer
as.shtml

http://www.motorcycl
enews.com/MCN/News/n
ewsresults/General-n
ews/2010/May/may2810
-speed-cameras-inacc
urate-in-cold-weathe
r/


And that's just a few of the thousands that aren't contested.

Agniesca says...
9:13pm Tue 3 Aug 10

What is speeding? Limits are always being varied up and down. In any case signs which illuminate when you are going too fast cause most cars to slow down, a letter in the post one week later doesn't

wayneo says...
11:05am Wed 4 Aug 10

Exactly, Vehicle activated signs are magnificent, we are human (well, most of us), and a gentle reminder rather than a nip in the post is far more constructive and immediate to road safety. Unfortunately, in the pursuit of revenue under the old netting off rules where Councils would obtain a cut of the fines, cameras were pushed onto us and the statistics skewed in their favour.

Now that the cat is out of the bag,that revenue goes to the treasury, cameras aren't flavour of the month. i wonder how many people would be alive today were the pursuit of revenue not the primary consideration.

mo-at-hw says...
7:08pm Wed 4 Aug 10

Alright then, lets compromise, give us a rough outline without these "details" of the revenue. What's that? Oh, another stupid excuse...

hondo says...
4:46pm Thu 5 Aug 10

Before this goes to rest, could BFP now request the revenue from the 20% of cameras to be switched off?
This way we may be able to ascertain whether those withdrawn were accruing plus or minus 20% of the total income.
.
Then we can comfortably be assured whether they were sited for safety or revenue.
.
Or is that "commercially sensitive"?

hondo says...
4:50pm Thu 5 Aug 10

Slacker wrote:
If people did not speed in the first place there would be no cash cow. Drive within the limits and what is the problem?
You really aren't paying attention ru Slacker. Why do you think the speed limits were revised two years ago?
~
That's right - insufficient income to support the pointless regime.
~
Do buck up.

Agniesca says...
6:12pm Thu 5 Aug 10

a Bit unfair,they increased thelimit on Marlow Hill


Speed cameras raise more than £65m a year, it has been claimed We won't reveal camera fines because some are switched off, bosses say

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