Report on High Speed 1 raises serious questions about HS2

1:40pm Wednesday 4th April 2012 in News By James Nadal

Report on High Speed 1 raises serious questions about HS2 Report on High Speed 1 raises serious questions about HS2

A REPORT on Britain's first high speed railway raises serious questions about High Speed 2 and shows crucial flaws, technology and engineering experts say.

The Institution of Engineering and Technology warned lessons have not yet been learned from High Speed 1, following research by the National Audit Office.

Passenger numbers for Britain's first high speed railway line which connects London and the Channel Tunnel are still below expectations according to the report.

Campaigners against HS2 have strongly argued that predictions for the number of people who will use the new £33bn rail scheme are dubious.

Chris Richards, Transport Policy Advisor at the IET, said: “In our response to the Department for Transport consultation we made it clear that there were potential flaws in the analysis, several assumptions were made in crucial areas and serious questions have been left unanswered.

“The report backs up our concerns as the original High Speed 1 business case was based on journey time saving benefits and increased rail capacity.

“The total value of these benefits is not known as the DfT has not yet developed a method to evaluate HS1 project costs against benefits, despite this forming part of the High Speed 2 justification.

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“High Speed 2 is a project of major national significance, if we get this wrong, we will regret it for decades to come.”

Other key points the IET highlighted from the report are that project costs for HS1 exceed the value of journey time saving benefits, while construction costs were 18 per cent higher than planned.

Passenger numbers were two-thirds of their forecast level, the study found.

The Department for Transport has not yet commented.

Comments (16)

5:06pm Wed 4 Apr 12

wayneo says...

oops, tic-tac sir?
oops, tic-tac sir? wayneo

5:51pm Wed 4 Apr 12

washondo says...

Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street.
Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street. washondo

7:29pm Wed 4 Apr 12

wayneo says...

oh dear,
“The total value of these benefits is not known as the DfT has not yet developed a method to evaluate HS1 project costs against benefits, despite this forming part of the High Speed 2 justification.

!

project costs for HS1 exceed the value of journey time saving benefits, while construction costs were 18 per cent higher than planned.

it's very quiet in here :-)
oh dear, [quote]“The total value of these benefits is not known as the DfT has not yet developed a method to evaluate HS1 project costs against benefits, despite this forming part of the High Speed 2 justification.[/quote] ! [quote] project costs for HS1 exceed the value of journey time saving benefits, while construction costs were 18 per cent higher than planned. [/quote] it's very quiet in here :-) wayneo

8:07pm Wed 4 Apr 12

billsheppard says...

All HS1 succeeded in doing was push up the prices of standard commuter fares on the existing local line.
-
Initially the slower services were cheaper than HS1 so the HS1 services were frequently sparsely populated and commuter services full. Though rather than lower prices to entice those going through to London onto HS1, they merely put the price of the standard trains up to the HS1 price!
What's the betting there's going to be a repeat of that with HS2?
-
All this at the same time as funding for local transport gets squeezed as local buses and trains are less frequent and fares rise steeply.
All HS1 succeeded in doing was push up the prices of standard commuter fares on the existing local line. - Initially the slower services were cheaper than HS1 so the HS1 services were frequently sparsely populated and commuter services full. Though rather than lower prices to entice those going through to London onto HS1, they merely put the price of the standard trains up to the HS1 price! What's the betting there's going to be a repeat of that with HS2? - All this at the same time as funding for local transport gets squeezed as local buses and trains are less frequent and fares rise steeply. billsheppard

8:11pm Wed 4 Apr 12

billsheppard says...

Also, a shameless plug for a meeting on Weds 11th April, 7:30pm at Wooburn Green Working Men's Club called by the campaign group to reinstate the No. 1 route bus that was cut, as well as against fare rises and service cutbacks for public transport services generally.
Those affected by other route closures/cutbacks also more than welcome to attend.
Also, a shameless plug for a meeting on Weds 11th April, 7:30pm at Wooburn Green Working Men's Club called by the campaign group to reinstate the No. 1 route bus that was cut, as well as against fare rises and service cutbacks for public transport services generally. Those affected by other route closures/cutbacks also more than welcome to attend. billsheppard

9:23pm Wed 4 Apr 12

Chiltonians says...

Question: Who wants to save 30 mins on their train journey???

The Answer:

Well, for a normal commuter,
30 mins saving per trip = 1 hour per day = 5 hours per week = 20 hour per month = about 3 working days.

3 working days each month = or in other words one extra full bank holiday weekend per month (for free) = special time to spend with your loved ones.

Or let's add it all up instead. And then call it at least an extra 30 days annual leave per year!! Yes 30 days for free – on top of the annual leave you already get = a longer life!

I would love 30 minutes off each commute I do!

Every minute counts when it comes to spending time with your loved ones."
Question: Who wants to save 30 mins on their train journey??? The Answer: Well, for a normal commuter, 30 mins saving per trip = 1 hour per day = 5 hours per week = 20 hour per month = about 3 working days. 3 working days each month = or in other words one extra full bank holiday weekend per month (for free) = special time to spend with your loved ones. Or let's add it all up instead. And then call it at least an extra 30 days annual leave per year!! Yes 30 days for free – on top of the annual leave you already get = a longer life! I would love 30 minutes off each commute I do! Every minute counts when it comes to spending time with your loved ones." Chiltonians

9:54pm Wed 4 Apr 12

demoness the second says...

"You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"......
How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know..

Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.
"You think you own whatever land you land on The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"...... How high does a sycamore grow? If you cut it down then you'll never know.. Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me. demoness the second

8:10am Thu 5 Apr 12

gpn01 says...

washondo wrote:
Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street.
The IET isn't a quantity. It's a professional membership organisation which promotes the engineering and technology industries. What they're saying is therefore truly independent.
[quote][p][bold]washondo[/bold] wrote: Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street.[/p][/quote]The IET isn't a quantity. It's a professional membership organisation which promotes the engineering and technology industries. What they're saying is therefore truly independent. gpn01

8:46am Thu 5 Apr 12

wayneo says...

Chiltonians wrote:
Question: Who wants to save 30 mins on their train journey??? The Answer: Well, for a normal commuter, 30 mins saving per trip = 1 hour per day = 5 hours per week = 20 hour per month = about 3 working days. 3 working days each month = or in other words one extra full bank holiday weekend per month (for free) = special time to spend with your loved ones. Or let's add it all up instead. And then call it at least an extra 30 days annual leave per year!! Yes 30 days for free – on top of the annual leave you already get = a longer life! I would love 30 minutes off each commute I do! Every minute counts when it comes to spending time with your loved ones."
One could always move closer if time is that precious and besides, you haven't taken into consideration the amount of time spent commuting to a transport exchange in the first place. Also, isn't it ironic that you would cite "spending time with loved ones" as being a reason that people would want to shave 30 minutes of time off of a journey yet in return, are prepared to see swathes of Countryside and people losing their homes to this infrastructure. If time is that precious, (aside from the omissions with your calculations), then they could always move closer to where they work.
[quote][p][bold]Chiltonians[/bold] wrote: Question: Who wants to save 30 mins on their train journey??? The Answer: Well, for a normal commuter, 30 mins saving per trip = 1 hour per day = 5 hours per week = 20 hour per month = about 3 working days. 3 working days each month = or in other words one extra full bank holiday weekend per month (for free) = special time to spend with your loved ones. Or let's add it all up instead. And then call it at least an extra 30 days annual leave per year!! Yes 30 days for free – on top of the annual leave you already get = a longer life! I would love 30 minutes off each commute I do! Every minute counts when it comes to spending time with your loved ones."[/p][/quote]One could always move closer if time is that precious and besides, you haven't taken into consideration the amount of time spent commuting to a transport exchange in the first place. Also, isn't it ironic that you would cite "spending time with loved ones" as being a reason that people would want to shave 30 minutes of time off of a journey yet in return, are prepared to see swathes of Countryside and people losing their homes to this infrastructure. If time is that precious, (aside from the omissions with your calculations), then they could always move closer to where they work. wayneo

9:44am Thu 5 Apr 12

washondo says...

gpn01 wrote:
washondo wrote:
Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street.
The IET isn't a quantity. It's a professional membership organisation which promotes the engineering and technology industries. What they're saying is therefore truly independent.
Sorry - respect and thanks to the IET for expressing it so lucidly and highlighting the negligence of DfT, but the opinion of the man in the street would be the same. That's the electorate who are fed up seeing their taxes wasted on grandiose concepts, most of which don't come to fruition in order to keep "planners" employed.
[quote][p][bold]gpn01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]washondo[/bold] wrote: Who said "beloody pointless?" More so the IET report. Another Quango time wasting, when they could have asked anyone in any street.[/p][/quote]The IET isn't a quantity. It's a professional membership organisation which promotes the engineering and technology industries. What they're saying is therefore truly independent.[/p][/quote]Sorry - respect and thanks to the IET for expressing it so lucidly and highlighting the negligence of DfT, but the opinion of the man in the street would be the same. That's the electorate who are fed up seeing their taxes wasted on grandiose concepts, most of which don't come to fruition in order to keep "planners" employed. washondo

12:43pm Thu 5 Apr 12

thethe says...

If people want to shave 30 minutes off their commute they should move closer to their place of work, or change jobs to somewhere closer to home. leave journey times as they are and make sure all passengers get a seat and decent wi fi then they can be productive during those extra 30 minutes.
If people want to shave 30 minutes off their commute they should move closer to their place of work, or change jobs to somewhere closer to home. leave journey times as they are and make sure all passengers get a seat and decent wi fi then they can be productive during those extra 30 minutes. thethe

9:03pm Thu 5 Apr 12

Chiltonians says...

demoness the second wrote:
"You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"......
How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know..

Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.
Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.
[quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: "You think you own whatever land you land on The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"...... How high does a sycamore grow? If you cut it down then you'll never know.. Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.[/p][/quote]Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them. Chiltonians

9:57pm Thu 5 Apr 12

demoness the second says...

Chiltonians wrote:
demoness the second wrote:
"You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"......
How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know..

Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.
Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.
LOL

*laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head*
[quote][p][bold]Chiltonians[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: "You think you own whatever land you land on The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"...... How high does a sycamore grow? If you cut it down then you'll never know.. Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.[/p][/quote]Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.[/p][/quote]LOL *laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head* demoness the second

9:35am Fri 6 Apr 12

Windsorian says...

Meanwhile in the real world - Atkins have been awarded the HS2 £13.3m Country South contract covering the design of approximately 91km of the route through Buckinghamshire, Northamptonshire and Oxfordshire, which includes the Colne Valley viaduct and the Chilterns tunnelling.
Meanwhile in the real world - Atkins have been awarded the HS2 £13.3m Country South contract covering the design of approximately 91km of the route through Buckinghamshire, Northamptonshire and Oxfordshire, which includes the Colne Valley viaduct and the Chilterns tunnelling. Windsorian

6:59pm Sun 8 Apr 12

Chiltonians says...

demoness the second wrote:
Chiltonians wrote:
demoness the second wrote:
"You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"......
How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know..

Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.
Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.
LOL

*laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head*
I'm happy for your motivation to live in a mud hut and ride a donkey :)

Back in the real World ...time moves on, population continues to increase, resources dwindle, land becomes under more pressure.
[quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chiltonians[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: "You think you own whatever land you land on The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"...... How high does a sycamore grow? If you cut it down then you'll never know.. Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.[/p][/quote]Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.[/p][/quote]LOL *laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head*[/p][/quote]I'm happy for your motivation to live in a mud hut and ride a donkey :) Back in the real World ...time moves on, population continues to increase, resources dwindle, land becomes under more pressure. Chiltonians

7:07pm Sun 8 Apr 12

Chiltonians says...

demoness the second wrote:
Chiltonians wrote:
demoness the second wrote:
"You think you own whatever land you land on
The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"......
How high does a sycamore grow?
If you cut it down then you'll never know..

Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.
Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.
LOL

*laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head*
Ha ha - Laughs as the point goes well over Demoness the second's head

Hey, perhaps if you changed the tree species for one that is actually native to this country ... and isn't also classed as a weed it might be more meaningful.

How tall does a Sycamores grow? I'm not sure as the Wildlife Trust and the Woodland Trust get rid of them before they get to any height :)
[quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Chiltonians[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]demoness the second[/bold] wrote: "You think you own whatever land you land on The earth is just a dead thing you can claim"...... How high does a sycamore grow? If you cut it down then you'll never know.. Apt words which no doubt will be ridiculed. But says it all for me.[/p][/quote]Ah, yes, the sycamore. A national national weed in the words of most environmentalists. Ask the Woodland Trust what they think of them.[/p][/quote]LOL *laughs as the point goes flying over Chiltonian's head*[/p][/quote]Ha ha - Laughs as the point goes well over Demoness the second's head Hey, perhaps if you changed the tree species for one that is actually native to this country ... and isn't also classed as a weed it might be more meaningful. How tall does a Sycamores grow? I'm not sure as the Wildlife Trust and the Woodland Trust get rid of them before they get to any height :) Chiltonians

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